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Wizard Sleep CSR Ruling

Rafe

First Post
Uhm, I'm still trying to get a ruling on whether Orb of Imposition can be applied to saves of both the "unconscious" and the "slowed" conditions, or only one of them (i.e. are the two conditions seen as one effect)?

No, because they're different effects.

Say you had a 5 fire damage (save ends), then the orb of imposition saving throw penalty would work on all of the saving throws until the save succeeds. Specifically:

"... has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw. That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect..."

It applies not to a single spell, or single round, but a single effect. So long as that single effect (on a single creature) is in effect, the orb of imposition ability persists.

So if the creature failed the slow save and went unconscious, THEN you could use Orb of Imposition to apply to all the creature's unconscious status saving throws.
 

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Ahglock

First Post
Doesn't look like anything prevents it...

-Hyp.

Yeesh then you could have like a consistent -9 to will saves. none of this once a encounter nonsense or one target only, -9 to all will saves, all the time. Yeah, that wont be seeing the light of day in my games. Yeah its high level, but even a -5 through -6 of lower levels is well something I do not want to see.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Actually, no. The solo lockout wizard is still incredibly effective when he's not locking out solos. And the party leader (tactical warlord)? Well, he's able to do his thing regardless of who the enemy is. The point is, this party is capable of handling regular threats as well as any other party, except they make solos a trivial non-issue. And that's where the problem lies.

Of course the wizard is negatively affected when he is not locking out solos once a day. Loot at all the resources you dedicated to that trick. None of those resources are available for all those other encounters, including daily magic item usage and daily spells and the opportunity cost of passing up other items you could have had and other powers etc..

In my opinion, that wizard would be pretty bad in most encounters, but great in one encounter a day vs. a solo. If that is fun for you, well have at it. But lets not pretend it cost nothing to do it. He is not as capable of handling regular threats as he normally would be.

I think the primary reason we hear about all these supposedly broken combination here is because they are theoretical only. In practice, it usually doesn't work out so well for the player who actually plays it out for a few full sessions.
 

MadLordOfMilk

First Post
Yeesh then you could have like a consistent -9 to will saves. none of this once a encounter nonsense or one target only, -9 to all will saves, all the time. Yeah, that wont be seeing the light of day in my games. Yeah its high level, but even a -5 through -6 of lower levels is well something I do not want to see.
Realistically, you're looking at -2 from spell focus (paragon tier feat) and -1/-2/-3 (levels 7, 17, 27 respectively) from Phrenic Crown. Ultimately that means heroic tier will only have a constant -1 for 7+, paragon will only have -3 initially then later -4, and way way WAY deep into epic tier you'll see -5.

I disregarded the sword because the WST PP is hard to argue as a great choice of Paragon Path for an orb wizard; Divine Oracle is absolutely insane by comparison, and is arguably one of if not the best choice. WST at most will get you some minuses to will saves with that sword and there's really not a ton else it lends to an orb wiz. Also, a -9 is still saveable, it just requires a 19 or 20 to save assuming zero bonuses to saving throws. WST is just bad compared to Divine Oracle, which can practically guarantee you're either at or very close to the top of the initiative and can't be surprised, and it will make sure your will attacks land with incredible frequency by letting you roll twice on the attack rolls. And I haven't even touched the usefulness of the powers... if a player really takes WST to get those potential few extra points off of saves as an orb-focused Wizard, you should probably sigh in relief as a DM. (Of course, the -9 goes great with Legion's Hold, but basing your PP around one daily you get 18 levels later is silly. Particularly because that -9 drops to -2 if you don't have your gear readily accessible or a similar problem, and the build doesn't work if your DM doesn't let you have all of those items at once.)
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Yeesh then you could have like a consistent -9 to will saves. none of this once a encounter nonsense or one target only, -9 to all will saves, all the time. Yeah, that wont be seeing the light of day in my games. Yeah its high level, but even a -5 through -6 of lower levels is well something I do not want to see.

Let's work it out then:

Orb of Imposition wizard class feature (PHB, usually from -4 to -9 or so, 1/enc)

Right, clearly an encounter power and not an always-on power. Requires wisdom be high, so I call BS on the "usually -4 to -9". The combo already requires spell focus, which requires charisma, and all powers require intelligence (you still have to hit), and a lot depends on constitution as well (you still need to live). So, you already start with a trade off somewhere to even make use of this encounter power.

Phrenic Crown (AV p.144, -1/-2/-3 to saves for Wil powers)

Yes, this will work fine. Expensive for a rarely used trick, but it works.

Wizard of the Spiral Tower with Cunning Longsword (AV p.67, -2/-3/-4 to saves),

Now we have sacrificed the opportunity cost of another Paragon path, and either a feat for weapon proficiency or the opportunity cost of having to choose Eladrin for race...which gets a boost to Int (which is good) and Dex (which is entirely useless for this build).

or Orb of Ultimate Imposition (AV p.96, -1 to -6 to Orb of Imposition power, daily)

Right, it's a daily, and as stated it is not compatible with the Spiral Tower trick.

Spell Focus (PHB, -2)

Works, but again requires Charisma, for a combo that is taking up to a Wisdom of 28 and all powers based off of Intelligence, boost to Dex, and need for Con?

It's a great combo for once/day, and good vs. will in general that also requires a save for ongoing effects. But it sacrifices a lot, and will be pretty sucky for non-save spells and non-will targeting spells...which will be often. Plus, you will be a glass cannon, having low hit points even for a wizard, and probably a low AC since you could not afford to focus much on magic armor with all those expensive trick-focused items.

It's really not that bad...but out of context pretending that all your wizard does is fight solos with weak will defenses will tend to exaggerate it's reliability. There is a good reason very few people would choose this route, and that is because it's mostly a one-trick pony that looks good on paper only.
 

MadLordOfMilk

First Post
Right, clearly an encounter power and not an always-on power. Requires wisdom be high, so I call BS on the "usually -4 to -9". The combo already requires spell focus, which requires charisma, and all powers require intelligence (you still have to hit), and a lot depends on constitution as well (you still need to live). So, you already start with a trade off somewhere to even make use of this encounter power.
The stat build is easy to pull off and still have a very solid character. See my example below.

Now we have sacrificed the opportunity cost of another Paragon path, and either a feat for weapon proficiency or the opportunity cost of having to choose Eladrin for race...which gets a boost to Int (which is good) and Dex (which is entirely useless for this build).
It'd be a feat; having to point-buy 18 WIS with an Eladrin would kill any chance of having the right stats to do the trick properly. The cost of the paragon path is definitely too high though, I agree. HOWEVER, as shown before there is an orb item that lets you make the save auto-fail, and technically that's the only item bonus you need to absolutely guarantee the unconscious effect once Sleep lands.

Right, it's a daily, and as stated it is not compatible with the Spiral Tower trick.
Could you explain that one to me? Also, that item is really just to enable making a saving throw "unsavable" earlier, it's not actually necessary for the build.

Works, but again requires Charisma, for a combo that is taking up to a Wisdom of 28 and all powers based off of Intelligence, boost to Dex, and need for Con?
Again, see example lv1 WIS below for the stat spread of a solid Wiz that can also pull this combo off.

It's a great combo for once/day, and good vs. will in general that also requires a save for ongoing effects. But it sacrifices a lot, and will be pretty sucky for non-save spells and non-will targeting spells...which will be often. Plus, you will be a glass cannon, having low hit points even for a wizard, and probably a low AC since you could not afford to focus much on magic armor with all those expensive trick-focused items.

It's really not that bad...but out of context pretending that all your wizard does is fight solos with weak will defenses will tend to exaggerate it's reliability. There is a good reason very few people would choose this route, and that is because it's mostly a one-trick pony that looks good on paper only.
The sacrifices really aren't that great. You can technically pull the effect off with zero item enhancements, they only help ensure it works. Probably the only key item would be the Orb of Karmic Resonance which will ensure the target fails the first saving throw. As far as making the attack land... well, getting a bunch of to hit bonuses is easy, just see the party leader :p Powers like Warlord's Favor, a level 1 encounter ability (and we're talking about doing this trick late paragon with item help or lv28+ without...), can add a big chunk to attack bonuses, on top of tactical presence and combat advantage, wand implement bonus if you have the feat for two implements, AND elven accuracy if all of that fails... it's really not too tough to make the to hit land.

Here's the example build I kept mentioning that makes for a very solid orb wizard that also has zero problems utilizing this trick without making any sacrifices:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======
HAZROR, level 1
Elf, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 18, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 13 Fort: 10 Reflex: 13 Will: 16
HP: 20 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Nature, Insight, History.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Improved Initiative

POWERS
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
1, At-Will: Ray of Frost
1, Encounter: Icy Terrain
1, Daily: Sleep
Spellbook: Flaming Sphere

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Arcane Implement, Orb, Dagger, Longbow, Arrows (60), Alchemical reagents (Arcana) (20), Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language, Animal Messenger, Rare Herbs (Nature) (10)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast DDI Character Builder ======

Certainly needs Toughness and Armor Proficiency (Leather), but it makes for a very solid build. Elf race enables a lot of mobility w/7 square movement, and the ability to shift through difficult terrain is definitely useful for avoiding opportunity attacks as a wiz that you'd otherwise be stuck taking. Elven accuracy helps a lot for ensuring those important control effects hit. +2 perception and +2 nature go great with the stats you'll have; hell, with such high WIS, you may as well take Skill Training (Perception) and if you added skill focus onto that you could have 25 passive perception at level 2 for overkill purposes... Basically the point I'm making is Elf is a GREAT race for an orb wizard, though it might not seem like it at first glance. He has enough stat-wise to qualify for any feats you'd want (except I guess Solid Sound); that +2 dex really pulls through in that department, enabling arcane reach, evasion, etc while still having enough stats for Spell Focus. The truly patient could even go 15 DEX 11 CHA and hold off on spell focus until epic tier if they wanted a DEX 17 feat like Seize the Moment or Defensive Advantage, but I didn't want to wait an extra 10 levels with that character just for access to a feat or two. Basically, the stat spread isn't a problem.
 
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Caliban

Rules Monkey
So you are now using 1) A daily spell, 2) your class encounter power, 3) your racial daily power, and 4) your magic item daily power, all to increase the odds of it working.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. You've focused too much on your one-shot, and left many aspects of your character empty. Those abilities are better used sprinkled throughout the day and regular encounters.

Um, my racial power is an encounter, not a daily. My class power is an encounter as well. Those are available every single fight, and many times I don't even need to use the racial power (only if I miss). And if I only use my class power if they first fail the save against the slow. If they make it, then I use the orb save penalty on a different power.

A solo or elite seems like a pretty good time to bust out a daily spell to me. And using a daily item power to give my daily spell significantly better chance of working seems like a good investment.



And how many combats happened where you did worse because you focused so much on the possibility of killing a solo once a day?

In the early leves (1-4) the character felt weak, but since lvl 5+ he's just been getting better and better. His racial power and feats work just fine in regular encounters, making sure a power lands when I need it.

He's multiclassed into ranger, has a passive 28 percption at lvl 8, and with Hunter's quary and the Brutal Accuracy feat he does some impressive damage at least once per combat (after I quarry someone I have that round and the next round to miss, reroll, and add 1d6+5 if I hit on the reroll).

He can thunderwave targets 5 squares on a hit, and I have a +2 Thunderawave staff as my main implement now (the orb of mental dominion is pretty much for Sleep for Phantasmal Assailant now). His Cloud of Daggers does 1d6+6 and another 5 damage on on your turn (even if I miss). Not to shabby.

He just took a feat to be trained in Stealth and has a +13 stealth now, which should be good for the occasional +2 combat advantage or skill challenge.

He's not your typical wizard, and took me awhile to get the hang of playing him. But he's pretty effective outside of a solo fight.

More importantly, he's fun and fairly unique.
 

Danceofmasks

First Post
Ok, I have to jump into this thread now.
I'm playing a level 25 wizard, and I did not build for saving throw lock.

Though we started the game at level 17, I made sure my character was one I would play from level 1, so I went with a standard build.
Tiefling Pyro ... wizard / battle mage / demigod
Starting Stats (lv1): str 8 con 13 dex 10 int 20 wis 13 cha 12
Current Stats (lv25): str 10 con 15 dex 12 int 29 wis 22 cha 14

I have spell focus 'cos it's a win (read: all wizards should get it).
I have the level 17 phrenic crown.
I took second implement to get mastery with orb.
That's already a -10 save penalty.

I have the level 23 orb of ultimate imposition.

Say hi to a -15 save penalty.

Now, I don't know sleep, 'cos I ditched my level 1 dailies ages ago, but ... I have prismatic spray.
Since my orb's power is a daily, I use it for that.
To be fair, I only really use my prismatic spells to target will, and the beams' daze is meh ... but hey, it's a level 17 item, and to me, it costs a pittance so I might as well have one, right?

So yeah, I'm a high hit/high dam wizard, and I'll often use orb of imposition on a damage over time just 'cos the party is all about dishing out damage.

But I can stunlock the solo. And I started with wis 13.
 

Xzylvador

First Post
Just to be fair, you need a -16 to lock a solo with 100% certainty.
With a -15, on a 20 roll, you get: +5(solo)-15(orb wizard)+20 = 10. A 10 is a succesful save.
But even then, using Earthroot Staff or Cunning Weapon/WotST, spell focus and Phrenic Crown alone, you easily hand out saves that most normal enemies will rarely overcome. Use the 1/enc -Wis to saves to take out the heaviest of the enemy group.
Seriously, how many times a day do you get solo's thrown at you? And aren't those the encounters you have your dailies for anyways? So use the Magic Orbs daily powers then.
Don't forget that pretty much all the save-ends powers are bursts. It's not just a -15(or better) to t one target, all the other enemies, his minions or normal monsters, are pretty much screwed by the penalties from items/feats alone.
 

Mithreinmaethor

First Post
Also would be interesting to see what your to hit is with your spells. I can figure the +12 for level +6 item +9 stat for a +27 but anything else on that?

Just wondering because at your level the solos you would be fighting should have a 40 or higher will out of the box. Heck just give one of them a +6 amulet of protection and without anything more than that +27 you would need to roll a 19 or 20 to even hit.
 

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