Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Lamoni]

I know this strays a little from the thread, but I'd like to ask this. Which non full casting class would have the best odds against the level 20 wizard?

I would guess Paladin... if he wins initiative, there is a good chance he can close the distance and obliterate the wizard in one attack. Of course a mounted fighter may do the same thing, but the Paladin's mount could better contribute to the attack... and the Paladin would have a chance of surviving one round from the wizard if he had to with better saves.

Anyway, I find it funny that this thread has gone on so long when no one is disagreeing that the wizard wins most of the time. The arguing is over how much of a chance the monk can have. From what I've seen in playing D&D, even a low level party can take out a dragon... if they buy the right scrolls and the dragon allows them to approach (isn't expecting a fight). There are WAY too many variables to decide the outcome without seeing the given scenario.

Also, in response to Nail's question...

Is there something that the Monk can do, that other classes can't do, that dooms the poor Wiz 20?

Obviously not. However, if you want to discount magic items, then you have eliminated a huge portion of D&D. All classes depend on magic items and they should. Spellcasters don't rely on the magic items as heavily, but they still certainly use them. And why eliminate magic items from the equation without eliminating all magic? It is just something that should never be done.

 

[Klaus]

So can ANY class take on a Wizard 20?

Sorcerer?

Cleric?

Druid?

Psion?

Anyone else?

 

[Rkhet]

All of the pure casters (i.e. any class with access to lvl 9 spells or equivalent psionics), properly prepared, has a chance. The fighter types and the rogue types are boned, though.

 

[moritheil]

IME actually most characters are built on that many points. IIRC there was a poll a while back on ENworld and most groups used 32 point buy. The higher point buy is in no way to the monk's advantage, because the wizard also gains the higher point buy. It's not like the monk gets extra points.

Please stop talking about all your campaign specifics. Other people have called you out on this, yet you persist. You're hurting America.

How exactly does the Wizard get 4 greater air elementals, and what is the monk doing while this happens? Not too mention only a dumb monk would focus on the air elementals instead of going after the wizard.

Gate, maybe? How about whirlwind form? They can just suck him up. It's going to take him a little time to escape their clutches, even if he can fly.

No I understood perfectly the rules of the debate. There are core rules for creating items that aren't specifically in the magical items section of the DMG. It's on page 285 of the DMG. Making an item that could use Antimagic field is core by the rules.

Dead wrong. Magic item creation for unspecified items is OPTIONAL. It is always subject to DM whimsy.

I tire of the resort to forcecage arguement. Here's an idea, the monk buys 3-5 rod's of cancellation for 11,000 each... no more forcecages. So now what ya gonna do?

Did the monk have enough ranks in Knowledge (arcana) to know to do that?

Yeah, but if the wizard doesn't get the monk off the bat he's almost certainly dead as well. Also, the only real viable way I've seen to lock down the monk is to rely on forcecage, and I've provided a simple solution above.

No, you lock him down, it's his turn he escapes + a move, and you're back to where you started.

He can't escape. Haven't they been talking about quickening dimension lock, or hitting him with QTS+Otto? I've only seen you respond with, "Well, IMC we don't do it that way, so I refuse to talk about it," or some variant thereof.

 

[moritheil]

Maybe there wasn't another one. But I know that gate was mentioned as a buffing spell that can be cast during a time stop. That does have a significant XP cost with it.
Very true. The monk would have to try to counter some tactic they thought the wizard would employ. If the monk knows what the wizard is going to do and the wizard is still clueless, the monk CAN win and will have a good chance. The thing is if the wizard knows what the monk has planned the wizard WILL win and there is no chance for the monk.

In other words, I was making a new point based on what I read... not accusing anyone of having said those words before.

Perhaps not, but, most importantly, the wizard should NOT be able to count on him NOT having one.

Otherwise M' Disjunction becomes a freebie that it's not supposed to be.

Can we PLEASE stop with the pointless arguments about what each side will or won't know? The monk is limited in his knowledge of the wizard's capabilities to the knowledge checks he can make. The wizard can cast a spell or two before the day of the fight and get some greater deities to tell him exactly what he needs to know.

 

[Thanee]

So can ANY class take on a Wizard 20?

Sorcerer?

Cleric?

Druid?

Psion?

Yep, those are all able to win, some have a slightly lower chance, some a slightly higher chance, depending on circumstances, but it's really just the spellcaster vs. non-spellcaster issues at high levels, which are the 'problem'.

Spellcasting is simply too poweful at high levels for the non-spellcasters to stand a realistic chance.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rassilon]

Given that we are being silly, how 'bout we make the fight absolutely NAKED. I mean it. I've read the whole thread: The wizard most often beats the monk.

But now 20th level wizard vs. 20th level monk in some sort of arena. They have each known from first level that they will fight naked at 20th level (so can choose appropriate feats). (should we ban the monk from having VoP ?)

GO:

Rassilon.

 

[Doctor Shaft]

There's not much difference in a naked fight. Primarily because both the monk and the wizard aren't really helpless when naked. In fact, the wizard is still more potent than the ever ready monk.

The monk, naked, starts with 10/magic armor, a single healing spell, some stunning fists, and a really solid, damage reduction penetrating fists with 1d20 damage and some excellent maneuvering, along with evasion and other neat gimmicks.

The monk, clothed, ain't much different.

The wizard, naked, starts with all the awesome spells and strategies that he will use to kill said monk as the wizard that's clothed. A wizard with clothing is merely a wizard with even MORE spells or ever-ready tricks to kill the monk.

The monk's clothing, by comparison, is probably more focused on enhancing the very poor utility of his monk abilities. He wants to raise the DC of this stunning fist, make his attacks actually hit, and maybe increase his AC and some resistances. After that, he's pretty much spent.

A wizard can do everything the monk can for free.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Err...there's a HUGE difference in an equipmentless fight.

All non-casting classes rely upon their equipment to make up for their lack of versatility. Monks are no exception, and need equipment no less than any other non-caster. Without equipment, the lethality of certain spells (e.g. the oft-mentioned forcecage) increases dramatically. Fighting "naked", the monk COMPLETELY lacks that tiny chance he otherwise might have to take down the Wizard.

 

[Artoomis]

Err...there's a HUGE difference in an equipmentless fight.

All non-casting classes rely upon their equipment to make up for their lack of versatility. Monks are no exception, and need equipment no less than any other non-caster. Without equipment, the lethality of certain spells (e.g. the oft-mentioned forcecage) increases dramatically. Fighting "naked", the monk COMPLETELY lacks that tiny chance he otherwise might have to take down the Wizard.

Actually, with absolutely NO equipment the monk wins every time.

No spell book and no spell components. Wizard cannot even prepare any spells. Monk wins because he is too fast for the wizard who cannot run away.

Yes, I know this is silly.

Another approach is for the monk to sunder or "disarm" (take) the Wizard's spell component pouch. No spells that have material componenets certainly reduces the options for the Wizard. Sunder is easier, as the pouch just might be "well-secured."

Force Cage and most other spells require a material component. Time Stop and Teleport do not, so the wizard can get away, at the least.

The wizards true weakness is need for his spell book and material components. Naturally, he will (one hopes) have spares.