D&D 5E Wizard with 20 CON and the Durable feat

[Thaumaturge]

Me too. I'd have worded it like this:

When a wizard with 20 Con and the Durable feat rolls a hit die to regain hit points, how many TOTAL hit points does he or she get?

1. Roll 1d6+5. If the total is less than 10, gain 10. Otherwise, gain an amount equal to the total.
2. Always gain 11 (6+5).
3. Always gain 15 (10+5).

Wait. How would I choose the falling rock option?

Thaumaturge.

 

[Dausuul]

Wait. How would I choose the falling rock option?

Thaumaturge.

Falling rocks are implicit. It's assumed that the DM is dropping rocks on the wizard's head no matter what. As a veteran wizard player of 25 years, I can say with confidence that wizards always deserve to have rocks fall on their heads.

 

[Steely Dan]

No need for debate, if you have a 14 Con, you simply get a minimum of 4 Hit Points when you spend a Hit Dice (the alternative being 3).

 

[Dausuul]

No need for debate, if you have a 14 Con, you simply get a minimum of 4 Hit Points when you spend a Hit Die (the alternative being 3).

I agree that this is the intent of the feat, but the wording is ambiguous. Many people are arguing that it should be read as "the minimum result of the die roll is twice your Con modifier" rather than "the minimum of the total is twice your Con modifier," and that is a plausible interpretation of the text. In that case, if you have a 14 Con, you would get a minimum of 6 hit points; the die roll has a floor of 4, and then you add your +2 Con modifier.

So, I think you're right on the rules, but there clearly is a need for debate. You can't have ambiguous text and not debate it. This is the Internet.

 

[variant]

Which is a much better response than saying "people don't want to go read [the rules]". I do. I am.

If we want to have fun with bolding:





In plain English, you don't roll modifiers. You roll dice and add modifiers. The minimum from the roll, therefore, is the minimum from the actual die. Then modifiers are added.

I want to be clear. I'm not certain you're wrong. I'm also not certain you're right.

Thaumaturge.

I see. So when it says on the line below, "The player can then decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll," they don't mean each Hit Die + modifier, or even each roll + the modifier. They just mean you get to spend a Hit Die without a modifier after each roll without the modifier.

What about when it says under The Order of Combat, "when everyone rolls initiative", they don't mean roll the 1d20 + Dexterity modifier, just the 1d20?

How about under Making An Attack when it says, "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise"? Do you mean to imply you only roll the damage die and not add the modifier?

Context is vitally important in the English language.

 

[Steely Dan]

I agree that this is the intent of the feat, but the wording is ambiguous. Many people are arguing that it should be read as "the minimum result of the die roll is twice your Con modifier" rather than "the minimum of the total is twice your Con modifier," and that is a plausible interpretation of the text. In that case, if you have a 14 Con, you would get a minimum of 6 hit points; the die roll has a floor of 4, and then you add your +2 Con modifier.

So, I think you're right on the rules, but there clearly is a need for debate. You can't have ambiguous text and not debate it. This is the Internet.

I totally dig what you're saying, but I see a lot of disingenuousness and purposely misreading to further agenda.

 

[Thaumaturge]

So, I think you're right on the rules, but there clearly is a need for debate.

I'd like to debate this point...

I see. So when it says on the line below, "The player can then decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll," they don't mean each Hit Die + modifier, or even each roll + the modifier. They just mean you get to spend a Hit Die without a modifier after each roll without the modifier.

My super strict, laughable reading of that would be that you would roll a Hit Die, see the number, decide to spend another Hit Die, and then add the first Hit Die's modifier and finish adding those hit points to your current hit points. Then spend your next Hit Die. That's clearly ridiculous.

What about when it says under The Order of Combat, "when everyone rolls initiative", they don't mean roll the 1d20 + Dexterity modifier, just the 1d20?

My guess is they mean roll initiative. Initiative tells you to make a Dex check, Ability Checks tells you that's a d20+Dex+proficiency bonus.

How about under Making An Attack when it says, "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise"? Do you mean to imply you only roll the damage die and not add the modifier?

Definitely a good example of "roll" being used to mean the whole deal and not just the one die. Cool. Thanks.

Context is vitally important in the English language.

Yep. I'm not trying to trick you or get all "internet argument guy". I just seriously haven't been sure which is the intent of what was written. Your last point was a good one. You've made a couple of good points when you haven't been making statements about how those who disagree with you are refusing to read the rules.

I totally dig what you're saying, but I see a lot of disingenuousness and purposely misreading to further agenda.

As I'm the one making this argument this morning, I'll guess you mean me. It's possible you don't. Either way, I see rules discussion. If I'm coming off as disingenuous or with an agenda...I'm sorry. I'm just trying to read things. My first read of the feat, without seeing any discussion was that the roll was modified not the total. There are others here who appear to have had the same first impression.

I thought I'd made it clear a few times that I'm just not certain how the feat should be read. I'm the DM at my table. The only time I play is once a year at Gen Con. I'll almost certainly never make a character who takes this feat. So I don't have a lot of skin in this game.

I haven't even figured out how I'll interpret things at my table. But I'm more than happy you've figured out how to interpret them at yours. Cool. And your interpretation and mine don't have to be the same and don't impact each other.

I should probably just go back to making joke posts. /Set agenda for silly.

Thaumaturge.

 

[jrowland]

meh. I don't care either way. I'd rule 10 or 11, but if it makes the wizard player happier for it to be 15, I'd probably let it slide. A wizard with 20 con has on average 9 hp/level (excluding 1st)...so with every hit dice spent during a rest, the wizard is healing a over level's worth of HP with the durable feat.

Oh My God! The wizard is at max HP after only using 3 HD! He still has 2 left!

vs

Oh My God! The wizard is at max HP after only using 2 HD! He still has 3 left!

In either case, the wizard is one critical hit away from death, lol!

In addition, the wizard is more likely to run out spells before HD with Durable feat, so its likely moot. i.e. if you don't use all your HD using a 10/11hp recovery before a long rest, it really isn't much of boost to use the 15hp as the recovery amount.

 

[variant]

Yep. I'm not trying to trick you or get all "internet argument guy". I just seriously haven't been sure which is the intent of what was written. Your last point was a good one. You've made a couple of good points when you haven't been making statements about how those who disagree with you are refusing to read the rules.

I apologize coming off as hostile. This debate is going on in like four different forums and it's frustrating.

Each type of roll: attack, attack damage, spell attack, initiative, ability check, saving throw, and of course Hit Die, has a section that describes what the roll is and what modifiers are attached to it. So when that rolls comes up outside of that section they don't need to keep describing them.

 

[Thaumaturge]

I apologize coming off as hostile.

I just set agenda to silly. So I really want to make a joke here. But an internet apology is a rare beast. So thanks.

This debate is going on in like four different forums and it's frustrating.

Dude. Have this same conversation 4 times would be maddening. I'm sorry for adding to your frustration.

Each type of roll: attack, attack damage, spell attack, initiative, ability check, saving throw, and of course Hit Die, has a section that describes what the roll is and what modifiers are attached to it. So when that rolls comes up outside of that section they don't need to keep describing them.

That is a really good way of putting it.

This is now the way I see it. Thanks for talking me through the process.

Thaumaturge.