Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[Celebrim]

Um, did nobody play a pre 3e wizard?...1e/2e wizards were HARD to play. Seriously, with the restriction on magic items (can't buy them, pretty much an adventure in of itself to make one thus you had to get by with what slots you had) AND the rules of magic in combat (1 pt of damage and your spell is lost AND high level spells being relatively slow in combat) AND the rules for spells themselves (many spells being dangerous to the caster AND spell acquisition being more subject to the whims of the DM AND non-damage spells being less useful as you level)

Yes, I played it pre-3e wizard. And yes, I pretty much instantly discount the opinion of anyone who claims 1e wizards made other classes obselete and completely overshadowed other classes as in fact never having played 1e and not having much of an opinion worth listening to on this matter.

My general experience with 1e wizards is that they were too fragile to keep alive. Even at 6th or 7th level, a single class wizard simply didn't have enough spells to contribute anything more than an occasional emergency nova, and could easily be dropped by single attacks and was lucky to have an AC of better than 8 or so. Most of the time you kept behind cover, and occasionally flung a dart or dagger. In the highly unlikely event you got one to 10th level, you still probably had less than 30 h.p. and you were lucky if you'd managed to get your AC down to 0. It was very easy to have your character overwhelmed even at a time when your compatriots were reaching the point that they had so many hitpoints that nothing in game could drop them except a failed saving throw.

I never saw a single classed 1e wizard survive to high levels in all the time playing the game. I saw some fairly powerful multiclassed wizards who used the hitpoint boost (and sometimes AC boost) to get them through the low levels, but then you often ran up into an XP wall that made advancement almost impossible. Except by the most deliberate effort by the DM and cautious play by the player, I can't imagine how you'd get a 1e M-U up to casting 9th level spells.

Third edition vastly increased the power of the wizard (and the cleric!). This was necessary at low levels, but broke the game (somewhat, I'm sure we can find plenty of defenders of the usefulness of other classes) at high levels. Many of the safeguards Gygax had wrote into the rules to prevent abuse of powerful spells were written out, and that just made the problem worse.

I didn't however see alot of 3rd edition single classed wizards survive long at my table either, nor did I do alot of high level play. But I can sympathize with both sides. I can definately see the problem (and I could foresee the problem developing with my PC cleric) and see why something needed to be done, but I can very much agree that the steps taken leave something to be desired (and that something isn't 'lording it over my fellow players').

 

[Fanaelialae]

In 3E(and before), Wizards(and spellcasters in general) could break the world if they wanted to. Spells fundamentally changed reality, and there's a lot of power in that. In 4E, the world has rules, and magic has to exist within those rules. If you want to wield the power to break the world, in 4E you're out of luck. It bears saying that the desire to be able to break the world doesn't necessarily mean you want to lord your power over everyone else at the table.

We lost one of our group when we switched to 4E because of this, though getting married and moving 45 minutes away contributed as well. We see him occasionally, and this is what he complains about in terms of 4E, not being able to wield ultimate power.

I wouldn't say that 4e wizards can never change reality per se, but rather that the capacity for breaking reality isn't a feature of spellcasting anymore, but rather of being epic level.

There are plenty of epic destiny powers and such that break reality in various ways. The most common probably being that instead of dying, you become meaner than you already were (death can be used to your advantage now).

I don't think there's anything quite on the level of Wish (the ultimate reality breaking spell), but Wish was one of the most problematic pre-4e spells for a number of reasons, so that's a good thing IMO.

 

[MerricB]

I never saw a single classed 1e wizard survive to high levels in all the time playing the game. I saw some fairly powerful multiclassed wizards who used the hitpoint boost (and sometimes AC boost) to get them through the low levels, but then you often ran up into an XP wall that made advancement almost impossible. Except by the most deliberate effort by the DM and cautious play by the player, I can't imagine how you'd get a 1e M-U up to casting 9th level spells.

In my very limited experience as a player, what you needed was to get a magic wand. My AD&D magic-user, Meliander, picked up a wand of fire with about 90-odd charges in the Temple of Elemental Evil and went to town with it. Later, he gained a Staff of Power.

Wizards were (relatively) weak without magic items in AD&D; they were exceptional with a couple of good wands.

Cheers!

 

[AllisterH]

Exactly Celebrim (hey we agree on something).

A 3e wizard is NOT the same thing as a pre 3e wizard. The body may look the same (spells) but the chassis is so different than it is an entirely new car.


I think what made wizards appear to be powerful was that the FICTION for the various D&D worlds. They always downplayed the restrictions IMO. Not just Forgotten Realms fiction where you had Elminister and the love given to spellcasting but even in Greyhawk and Dragonlance, the real movers and shakers of the campaign world were the spellcasters.

I think the only D&D writer that didn't write spellcaster as the uber-class in fiction was Salvatore and he's on record as being somewhat antagonistic towards the spellcasters.

 

[Celebrim]

In my very limited experience as a player, what you needed was to get a magic wand. My AD&D magic-user, Meliander, picked up a wand of fire with about 90-odd charges in the Temple of Elemental Evil and went to town with it. Later, he gained a Staff of Power.

Well, sure. But to really get himself going, a 1e M-U needed a fairly large stock of essential items that he just couldn't buy. I personally never came up with a Wand of Fire or a Staff or Power, though I did have alot of fun with a Wand of Paralyzation and a Wand of Polymorph.

In edition to at least one good wand you absolutely had to come up with bracers of defence and/or a good cloak of protection early on and neither of these were exactly common unless your DM was being nice. A set of bracers might turn up every fifty or sixty items, but outside of published modules brimming with every treasure imaginable (all the better to whisk your way through the story), your wand of fire only naturally turns up probably every 200 items or so. I mean, you are talking about an item that retails in 1e for more than a +5 holy avenger and is worth more than several artifacts. I don't know many DM's that just give those away.

 

[Chainsaw]

Um, did nobody play a pre 3e wizard?

The tactic of getting up in the morning and buffing yourself seems to be a 3.x tactic which I don't really remember in 1e/2e.

I played a bunch of 2E, but not much 3E. Based on my experience in 2E, I would have to agree with your and Celebrim's comments about magic-users being a difficult class that wasn't an obvious "BEST" option. They were really fragile with their crappy cloth robes and low hit points, plus they dreaded spells being disrupted by range attacks.

Comparisons of a game that allows/encourages SO many custom rules and playstyles becomes difficult, but honestly, we just never experienced the magic-user stealing the show. He got so few spells that he rarely bothered to memorize (or even want to have in the book) something that was redundant with abilities of other classes.

 

[Thasmodious]

Allister is right. 3e was quite the different beast (as different from older editions as 4e is from 3e). Older edition wizards were hard to play and those restrictions imposed a lot of balance against their overall power at higher levels. The 1e wizard is definitely my favorite iteration of the class.

The 4e wizard, though, let's talk flavor. The assumptions are a bit different from 1e, the adventurers begin fairly powerful rather than farm hands and wet behind the ears apprentices, but from those assumptions, 4e has the most wizardly wizard since 1e, I would see. They just ooze arcane power. The 4e wizard can cast spells all day long and not just some combat spells.

My 4e wizard wakes up in the inn and as he's stretching, a cup of water is poured from the nightstand and brought to him. While he drinks it, his clothes, stained from travel and wrinkled all to heck, float over and affix themselves to him. By the time he descends the stairs, they are spotlessly clean and pressed. He orders breakfast without seeming to speak aloud and feasts hands free while he peruses arcane texts with the aid of a magical light that floats just over his shoulder. He never opens a door with his own hands, lights candles and campfires from a distance, is equally comfortable on cold or hot days and is a master of the prank if he wants to be. Cantrips all day long are all about the flavor.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

The 4e wizard, though, let's talk flavor. The assumptions are a bit different from 1e, the adventurers begin fairly powerful rather than farm hands and wet behind the ears apprentices, but from those assumptions, 4e has the most wizardly wizard since 1e, I would see. They just ooze arcane power. The 4e wizard can cast spells all day long and not just some combat spells.

My 4e wizard wakes up in the inn and as he's stretching, a cup of water is poured from the nightstand and brought to him. While he drinks it, his clothes, stained from travel and wrinkled all to heck, float over and affix themselves to him. By the time he descends the stairs, they are spotlessly clean and pressed. He orders breakfast without seeming to speak aloud and feasts hands free while he peruses arcane texts with the aid of a magical light that floats just over his shoulder. He never opens a door with his own hands, lights candles and campfires from a distance, is equally comfortable on cold or hot days and is a master of the prank if he wants to be. Cantrips all day long are all about the flavor.

Hah, that's just mummery for the locals. The 3e wizard comes into the tavern, kills him and takes his stuff... and ya knowit

There are so many ideas of what constitutes a wizard; so many different flavours and all of them equally valid. For me though, a wizard should be able to make a threat and be able to back it up with his magic. A wizard should be able to make the impossible possible, all while having an air of mystery. In this regard, the 4e wizard fails for me; but as a well-balanced controller, he succeeds several times over.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Hah, that's just mummery for the locals. The 3e wizard comes into the tavern, kills him and takes his stuff... and ya knowit

There are so many ideas of what constitutes a wizard; so many different flavours and all of them equally valid. For me though, a wizard should be able to make a threat and be able to back it up with his magic. A wizard should be able to make the impossible possible, all while having an air of mystery. In this regard, the 4e wizard fails for me; but as a well-balanced controller, he succeeds several times over.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

But that isn't exactly true. After a few levels, the 4E Wizard is more than capable of making a threat and backing it up. He makes the impossible possible, and has an air of mystery.

The only difference is that he can't do it to his peers. He has to do it to those lesser than him. This is because the measure of power is no longer "casts spells". Its now level.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

But that isn't exactly true. After a few levels, the 4E Wizard is more than capable of making a threat and backing it up. He makes the impossible possible, and has an air of mystery.

The only difference is that he can't do it to his peers. He has to do it to those lesser than him.

Now don't get me started on minions otherwise we're headed for threadlock!

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise