Wizards, Naruto, and Game Balance

[Patlin]

"Naruto" was recomended to me by several members of my gaming group, and watching it has caused me to think about the limits of traditional fantasy in terms of game balance.

It seems to me that in most western fantasy literature, the truly powerfull characters are usually wizards. King Arthur is a powerfull fighter, but the limits of Merlin's powers are unknowable. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are larger than life... as long as Gandalf's not in the same room. Barak, Silk, and Hetar were heroes, but not of the world shattering power of Belgarath the Sorceror. Next to Elminster, even that dual scimitar wielding dark elf sems like a fairly ordinary guy.

With this in mind, it was interesting to see "Master Jeriah the Toad Sage" in a role similar to some sort of Archmage... and to realize that in spite of his powers, he's basically a fighting character.

I've heard a lot of people say that if you want to play in the epic game, you need 9th level spells at your disposal. More generally, a lot of people have commented that Wizards become more and more powerfull at higher levels. In my personal opinion, that's a lot less so in 3e than in 1e, but still a valid point.

With Bo9S, we saw a little bit about how fighting "powers" can work. A lot of things about Naruto remind me of things in the Bo9S. I don't want fighters in general to use things like a "summoning jutsu," but I would like to see a 4e 30th level fighter be equally powerfull and interesting as a 4e 30th level Wizard, Cleric, or Warlock.

If Bo9S is an indication of how they might accomplish this in 4e, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Naruto, for all its long-running shonen campiness, does a lot of things well when it's not putting out an entire year's worth of filler garbage. *cough* Interestingly, even if you decide that someone like Jiraiya is a fighting character rather than a magician, there's still room for the even more simple combatants like Gai and Rock Lee and the more strikingly magical ones like Shikimaru and Gaara. By declaring across the board that significant characters will be awesome regardless of what (sometimes ridiculous) means, the world ends up being pretty consistent. 4E doesn't need to be as bombastic about it as Naruto is sometimes, but the design principle present can certainly be done well.

And as an aside, I've found that Naruto has actually given me a lot of good ideas for making 3E spell casting a little bit less intellectually clunky. Spells are ordered into discrete levels and require somatic components? Make it one hand seal per spell level and suddenly the metagame concept makes sense and can be spoken about in game without dancing around the subject. And I find that "molding chakra" is a fantastic way of describing the abstraction that is preparing spells.

Interesting that your group would recommend the show to you though; I admit that I follow it (except for the why-gods-why year of filler), but I don't kid myself about the fact that it's aimed at 12 year olds.

 

[Patlin]

Interesting that your group would recommend the show to you though; I admit that I follow it (except for the why-gods-why year of filler), but I don't kid myself about the fact that it's aimed at 12 year olds.

I like childrens books like Harry Potter and Artemis Fowl, so I'm not shy about liking childrens TV like Naruto and Avatar either. I can't recall how the subject came up originally, we talk about all sorts of stuff while gaming. I've skipped Aqua Teen Hunger Force, though, even though that has received praise too.

My kids are 4 and 7, and I earn the occasional scowl from my wife if the kids catch an episode of Naruto due to the violence, but that's the only trouble I've had with the show.

 

[Engilbrand]

From a 25 year old high school teacher:
Avatar=the AWESOME
I still think that an Avatar RPG would rock, but I'm kinda hoping that 4E makes some of that stuff possible.

 

[Barastrondo]

Interestingly, even if you decide that someone like Jiraiya is a fighting character rather than a magician, there's still room for the even more simple combatants like Gai and Rock Lee and the more strikingly magical ones like Shikimaru and Gaara. By declaring across the board that significant characters will be awesome regardless of what (sometimes ridiculous) means, the world ends up being pretty consistent.

This is something that superhero games frequently try for; the idea that the energy blaster, the brick and the martial artist are all equally competent in most situations, with lesser emphasis on rotating time to shine. In Champions, they might all be rolling 12d6 damage. It's not to everyone's taste (some people really want to be the eggshell with the 16d6 mallet just to be different), but it does work out pretty well on a regular basis.

 

[Nifft]

but I don't kid myself about the fact that it's aimed at 12 year olds.

Some folks keep saying we need more 12 year olds playing D&D.

Maybe more anime is the way to go.

Cheers, -- N

 

[PeterWeller]

but I don't kid myself about the fact that it's aimed at 12 year olds.

I really don't see that as a boundary when one of your hobbies involves pretending you're an Elf Wizard a few nights a week. We can argue for the maturity of role-playing all we want, but it's still basically make-believe.

Some folks keep saying we need more 12 year olds playing D&D. Maybe more anime is the way to go.

You just might be on to something.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I think an even better example than Jiraiya of a "Fighting Archmage" is the Third Hokage. He is called the "Professor" who knows all the magic techniques of the entire ninja village, he is an old man who scrys with a crystal ball, and is generally wise and elderly, but when it comes to a fight he summons up a giant adamantine bo staff and mixes it up in melee.

In terms of raw variety of viable combat styles, techniques, and tactics, Naruto is really hard to beat.

 

[Dragonblade]

Naruto is one of my all time favorite anime! I definitely think the 3rd Hokage or Orochimaru are the best example of "wizard" style characters. Although I could see Jiraiya in that group also. The jutsu based magic system is very cool and well developed.

I have literally seen all 220 episodes of the original series AND every Shippuden episode released to date in Japan. I have all the manga as well. It helps that my wife is Japanese and loves the show as much as me. I really love the positive and uplifting themes of the show, especially Naruto's never give up the good fight attitude.

If you like Naruto, you should also check out Bleach. The show is a little bit more "adult" and it is a little more plot driven as opposed to Naruto which I feel is more character driven. But the magic system of "Kido" (i.e. spells) is nice. Zanpakuto are also a good example of items that essentially "level" with their wielders.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

I really don't see that as a boundary when one of your hobbies involves pretending you're an Elf Wizard a few nights a week. We can argue for the maturity of role-playing all we want, but it's still basically make-believe.

I agree with you more than you probably realize. I know that I'm all about holding on to being a 12-year old for as long as I can, but nerds draw strange lines in the sand sometimes. It was just surprising to hear that a group recommended the show, rather than one player mentioning it, another one saying how Naruto's lame and _____ is better, and another one complaining about how Japan is the cancer that's killing America or something similar.

But yes, I'm right with you. We're half a step away from fan-fiction here (which often becomes self-insertion fan-fiction), and it's all -- regardless of edition -- built on the stuff that makes grade schoolers wet their pants with excitement. I don't consider that shameful or humbling, but it's certainly something I try to keep in mind.