Wizards, Naruto, and Game Balance

[bgaesop]

words

I agree completely. Turning fighters into anime characters is one of the very few ways they could get me to drop 4e. I have no desire to play as or DM a world filled with anime characters, if I wanted that I would play BESM or something.

 

[Imaro]

I agree completely. Turning fighters into anime characters is one of the very few ways they could get me to drop 4e. I have no desire to play as or DM a world filled with anime characters, if I wanted that I would play BESM or something.

This is basically my rub with it...if I want an anime influenced game there's already plenty to be had on the market (BESM, besmd20, OVA, Exalted, etc.).

This is of course with the caveat...unless D&D 4e can in some way surpass what I can get out of playing and running these games. Otherwise it's just another imitator of something that's been imitated numerous times already.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I think it is funny how players feel like they need to have magic/ supernatural power to be some one.

According a a AD&D article, Gandalf was a 5th level MU. Krusk would have a field day creaming him...And gleefully smashing his way through Suron's army since they are all 1hd orcs and some giants. Drizz't would slap to death Merlin who would only have a handful of Alchemical items to attack and defend with.

---Rusty

That article actually predates AD&D, and was published in a 1977 Dragon (or rather, The Dragon) article. The thing is, it was essentially showing that many of the things that Gandalf, ostensibly the very paradigm of what a wizard was to D&D's audience circa the mid to late 70s, could do were covered by fairly low-level spells. The point being that if Gandalf was of such a low-level yet possessed great power, then PCs should take seriously the notion that great power is more a matter of creatively using what one has available, rather than having tons of raw power at one's disposal. In essence, it was a check against level inflation, or what has been called powergaming or munchkinism in years since, or Monty Haulism, in which the DM granted great wealth and power very quickly. Another point is that Krusk wouldn't be plowing through Sauron's army like a harvester through corn; he'd be adjusted for inflation and only be 2nd level, maybe, in a world where Gandalf was 5th level. Or Gandalf and the orcs would be adjusted up for inflation to appropriate, present-day D&D levels.

 

[DungeonMaester]

That article actually predates AD&D, and was published in a 1977 Dragon (or rather, The Dragon) article. The thing is, it was essentially showing that many of the things that Gandalf, ostensibly the very paradigm of what a wizard was to D&D's audience circa the mid to late 70s, could do were covered by fairly low-level spells. The point being that if Gandalf was of such a low-level yet possessed great power, then PCs should take seriously the notion that great power is more a matter of creatively using what one has available, rather than having tons of raw power at one's disposal. In essence, it was a check against level inflation, or what has been called powergaming or munchkinism in years since, or Monty Haulism, in which the DM granted great wealth and power very quickly. Another point is that Krusk wouldn't be plowing through Sauron's army like a harvester through corn; he'd be adjusted for inflation and only be 2nd level, maybe, in a world where Gandalf was 5th level. Or Gandalf and the orcs would be adjusted up for inflation to appropriate, present-day D&D levels.

Which is what I counted on. Gandalf is a 5th level mu, Krusk is a 5th level barbarian UA, and the orcs..Are hd 4 (In 1st ed terms that means four hp)

---Rusty

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Which is what I counted on. Gandalf is a 5th level mu, Krusk is a 5th level barbarian UA, and the orcs..Are hd 4 (In 1st ed terms that means four hp)

---Rusty

As one of the iconics, I've never seen Krusk as representing the very pinnacle of power for his class. The iconics in general are meant to represent the typical PC at whatever level is appropriate for the campaign. Gandalf was being used in the article as a benchmark, an indication of the upper levels of power in his own world. None of the other characters came close to his level of power and influence, except for maybe Aragorn, and Tolkien referred to him as the strongest and hardiest man of his age, another benchmark. I don't think the iconics are meant to represent the best of the best in their world.

 

[triqui]

It seems to me that in most western fantasy literature, the truly powerfull characters are usually wizards. King Arthur is a powerfull fighter, but the limits of Merlin's powers are unknowable. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are larger than life... as long as Gandalf's not in the same room. Barak, Silk, and Hetar were heroes, but not of the world shattering power of Belgarath the Sorceror. Next to Elminster, even that dual scimitar wielding dark elf sems like a fairly ordinary guy.

All those examples you mentioned are unbalanced toward the wizard becouse of *level*, not becouse of the magic itself. Merlin was powerful centuries before Arthur was born. Gandalf could defeat Aragorn using a sword. Elminster has like 20 levels more than Drizzt!.

An equal level fighter should be as much as a challenge as a magic user. Feanor, who fought groups of Balrogs, or Fingorfin, who died in a even fight versus a GOD, will threat Gandalf's life. Cuchulain would be a problem for Merlin. Elminster has no rival in FR that i know, but that is just becouse there aren't lvl 36 fighters in the Realms. But if you *double* current Drizzt level... i think he might be very well a tie for Elminster himself.

In short, i agree with you in the idea that high lvl fighters should be equal to spellcasters. However, i think they already *are* in fantasy books. Just that the "old wizard with very high level that mentor low level fighters" are staple since Tolkien. They allways outlevel their martial partners. When faced in equal level (Such as Ullyses vs Circe), there is not a clear adventage of one over the other in the fantasy.

 

[Patlin]

As one of the iconics, I've never seen Krusk as representing the very pinnacle of power for his class.

Excepting, perhaps, that the cover of the Dragon Magazine issue focussed on the ELH depicted an epic Krusk.

 

[Patlin]

In short, i agree with you in the idea that high lvl fighters should be equal to spellcasters. However, i think they already *are* in fantasy books. Just that the "old wizard with very high level that mentor low level fighters" are staple since Tolkien. They allways outlevel their martial partners. When faced in equal level (Such as Ullyses vs Circe), there is not a clear adventage of one over the other in the fantasy.

I don't disagree with any of that, but I still think it's helpfull to have a genre influencing D&D that doesn't make the same assumptions. The notion that the highest level characters tend to be wizards isn't good for game balance. We could use some more epic level fighter archetypes standing up next to Elminster. Epic rogues, monks, ninjas, warlocks and everyone else too.

 

[triqui]

I don't disagree with any of that, but I still think it's helpfull to have a genre influencing D&D that doesn't make the same assumptions. The notion that the highest level characters tend to be wizards isn't good for game balance. We could use some more epic level fighter archetypes standing up next to Elminster. Epic rogues, monks, ninjas, warlocks and everyone else too.

Yes, that I agree. D&D need some epic iconic fighter which is balanced in power with "elminster-likes", name it Mordenkainen or whatever. Epic level Fighters like Cuchulain, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Feanor.... the kind of people who do unbeliable feats like fighting and defeating *a river*. The kind of warrior who could defend the Thermopilae *alone*, without even needing the 300 spartans. Those who challenge Gods, or defeat Death. Just like their counterparts Raistlins do.

 

[Andor]

Yeah.. But the difference between Wizards and Fighters in the long run is that Wizards, being magic and all, live unnaturally long lives. Fighters... tend not to die in bed.

So even if the wizard and the fighters level at the same rate, the wizard is on his 10th fighter buddy by the time of the narrative.

And it's worth noting that Gandalf and Merlin make lousy benchmarks because A) Gandalf is basically a powerful angel in human form and B) Merlin is half demon. Once you start slapping on templates all your benchmarks are off.