Wizards, Naruto, and Game Balance

[DungeonMaester]

I believe there was an old Dragon article that pegged Gandalf as a druid

Doesn't make it right though. Someone who is an angel, dances one on one with a balrog and can tame Shadowfax is NOT a 5th level MU.

And, which Merlin are you referring to? The one who could change his shape, appear as just about anyone, charm kings into letting people sleep with his wife or some other Merlin that didn't do all that?

Isn't it funny that when people try to talk about how low powered these archetypes are, they ignore the source material and state these things as straight up facts?

Merlin as the real person Merlin who was the Mcquiver of this time, not the Merlin in the Disney movie.
Even the Disney Merlin would be cleaved asunder from Arther wielding Excalibur.

 

[DungeonMaester]

We've discussed this exact point in a couple other recent threads, but the upshot of it is that the person who wrote that article was either completely missing the point or being deliberately sarcastic. The short version is that Gandalf is an aberration whose demonstrated powers don't need to be considered, since they are minor things he could do. He was prevented from using the full range of his ability since that would allow Sauron to do the same; if both of them actually cut loose with their full powers, it was very likely that they'd literally break the world.

The concept of overarching restraint usually imposed frmo the outside or for fear of 'upsetting the balance' is very prevalent in high fantasy, including the Arthurian Merlin, because it allows the author to show magical effects yet not overshadow the other characters completely. If literary characters behaved like most poorly-played RPG characters, then all we'd ever see would be the equivilant of 'All Power Attack All The Time', where they constantly use their biggest guns to solve every problem. It would get rather boring very quickly.

Having played spell casters in the LOTR rpgs which uses 2d6, i'd say in my amutaur opinion that the strongest spell caster in the LOTR is only a 6th level Wizard in D&D. The game, like the novels lack powerful offense spells like D&D has. All I had in the way of attack spells was a fireball type and a lighting bolt type spell. On top of that, I could cast plent of illusions and other tricks, but the effects of such spells where about equal to a 5th level illision spell in capasity.

---Rusty

 

[senna]

Rock Lee's powers may not be supernatural, but they're certainly superhuman. The first gate, the Gate of Opening quintuples his speed and strength. The other gates have other superhuman abilities like increasing stamina, and allowing the user to go faster than the speed of sound. It's certainly different than the other ninja abilities we see, but argueably no less formidable.

This is exactly the point, he dosn´t need to be a "spellcaster" to be on par with everybody else. What most people want is that in DnD the fighter or the rogue don´t be overshadowed by the wizard just by a lack of power, make everybody amazing, but just diferent to have a reason to pay them diferently, wizards bend reality and make the sky fall, the fighter have powers that make more capable at beating the hell of others better.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Seriously, I don't see this.

The only real connection is martial arts and the four classical elements...of which Exalted has FIVE (wood being the other). I've never seen anything that could be remotely construed as the other exaltation types, gods/primordials, fair folk, the Guild, the Realm, etc.

I *suppose* that the creators could be into Exalted and used it as inspiration, but it's very, very loose.

Brad

After almost a day of searching I give up. I was certain I remembered seeing an interview in which Exalted was specifically mentioned as an inspiration and later that he did play RPGs. I'm still certain I saw it but I can't find it so I'll concede lack of proof.

Maybe it's just me but I Do see direct correlations under the surface, where they would need to be to avoid a lawsuit from WW. While they're missing the fifth element many of their powers appear to work in the same fashion as Dragon-Blooded charms mechanically. The Fire Nation always seemed a direct parallel to the Heavenly Isle both culturally and in how it interacted with the rest of the political bodies of Avatar, if anything it seemed a direct parallel to the chaos at the end of the Shogunate. They deal with "Spirits" on several occasions that have a niche right in line with the Terrestrial Gods of Exalted, for example the Owl with its library. The Avatar has what is undeniably a Caste Mark in the fashion of the Celestial Exalted, and it even deals with the reincarnation of the 'exaltation' of the Avatar throughout time into different people which is also a central theme of Exalted.

 

[DungeonMaester]

This is exactly the point, he dosn´t need to be a "spellcaster" to be on par with everybody else. What most people want is that in DnD the fighter or the rogue don´t be overshadowed by the wizard just by a lack of power, make everybody amazing, but just diferent to have a reason to pay them diferently, wizards bend reality and make the sky fall, the fighter have powers that make more capable at beating the hell of others better.

Then make spell caster follow the core rules. A wizard that follows the rule of choosing spells ahead of time is very difficult to over shadow the same level monk who can kill a dragon with his fist or a barbarian who cleaves his way through anything with a non magic axe!*

A caster overshadows the party when the dm lets them get away with casting what ever spell they want. Do you think V (from Order of thr stick) could so easily beat Haley? Or the insane halfling god of war? Only he he could freely shift from fireballs to teleports with out having to pick spell ahead of time.

---Rusty

 

[Caliber]

Then make spell caster follow the core rules. A wizard that follows the rule of choosing spells ahead of time is very difficult to over shadow the same level monk who can kill a dragon with his fist or a barbarian who cleaves his way through anything with a non magic axe!*

A caster overshadows the party when the dm lets them get away with casting what ever spell they want. Do you think V (from Order of thr stick) could so easily beat Haley? Or the insane halfling god of war? Only he he could freely shift from fireballs to teleports with out having to pick spell ahead of time.

---Rusty

The vast majority of my players use classes like Warmage and Favored Soul (and one guy who is a Warmage/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge) to avoid having to select spells at the start of the day. I'd say they could handle most fighters semi-easily, assuming they weren't ambushed. And when ambush is your only possible tactic ... well

 

[the Jester]

The idea that wizards are the only PC's that can be superhuman needs to go the way of the dodo, fast. 4e would appear to step in this direction, using Bo9S as a base, but timidly -- my guess is that it's going to be more "hulking out" and less "energy shockwave and semi-mystical bond"

While I agree that fighters, at high levels especially, should be all kinds of awesome, I really don't want to see "energy shockwave and semi-mystical bond" as fighter tricks. Honestly, when I play a fighter, part of the joy is in not having tons of magic tricks. I like my fighter abilities to be more grounded in weapons combat. Tactical feats, weapon style feats, etc. are a good model for this, as are many of the new high level fighter feats in PH2.

I wouldn't mind the inclusion of quasi-magic abilities for fighters as long as there are alternatives whereby I can build a really, honestly, no-foolin' fighter without any magic tricks- and one that is not inherently inferior to a fighter whose tricks include energy shockwave et. al. type abilities.

 

[Gloombunny]

While I agree that fighters, at high levels especially, should be all kinds of awesome, I really don't want to see "energy shockwave and semi-mystical bond" as fighter tricks. Honestly, when I play a fighter, part of the joy is in not having tons of magic tricks. I like my fighter abilities to be more grounded in weapons combat. Tactical feats, weapon style feats, etc. are a good model for this, as are many of the new high level fighter feats in PH2.

I wouldn't mind the inclusion of quasi-magic abilities for fighters as long as there are alternatives whereby I can build a really, honestly, no-foolin' fighter without any magic tricks- and one that is not inherently inferior to a fighter whose tricks include energy shockwave et. al. type abilities.

How do you feel about abilities that, realistically speaking, are physically possible but beyond normal human limits? Stuff like moving faster, jumping higher, or hitting harder than any human ever could in the real world.

'Cuz while I can see the appeal of a fighter who doesn't even do that kind of stuff, I'm not sure it's possible to make them any kind of balanced against spellcasters at high levels without severely restricting what magic can do. There's only so much you can do with precise skill and tactical insight when the other guy is shooting fire and flying. Exaggerated physical prowess at least gives developers something to work with.

 

[I'm A Banana]

While I agree that fighters, at high levels especially, should be all kinds of awesome, I really don't want to see "energy shockwave and semi-mystical bond" as fighter tricks. Honestly, when I play a fighter, part of the joy is in not having tons of magic tricks. I like my fighter abilities to be more grounded in weapons combat. Tactical feats, weapon style feats, etc. are a good model for this, as are many of the new high level fighter feats in PH2.

Tactical feats and weapon style feats broaden you without giving you much power. It seems like most are made for characters to have one of them, and then go do something else for the other 11 feats.

High-level PH2 Fighter feats seem more in the realm of tricks (not magical, but still tricks).

The ability of a high-level fighter to, say, thrust the point of his spear five times in the span of time it takes a normal person to thrust it once....

...The ability of a high-level fighter to, say, have such an awareness of his opponent's presence that he can sense someone sneaking up on him from miles away...

...the ability of a high-level fighter to, say, hit someone so hard that they fall down and can't regain their breath for a few rounds...

...the ability of a fighter, say, have such a mastery of his weapon that, when hitting you with the flat of the blade, he can knock you out just as easily as if he were using the cutting edge...

Many of these things are superhuman. None are mystical, yet you could replace "fighter" with "wizard" and turn these into spells without much problem, either.

A fireball or an energy blast is pretty overt. But, mechanically speaking, an attack that, say, is so accurate that it ignores armor and so deadly that it kills with a single thrust, beyond the hope of most resurrection magic, would be mechanically identical to a finger of death spell. Instead of casting a spell, he does an attack. Change some flavor, the effect is the same, call it a wash.

 

[Hussar]

Merlin as the real person Merlin who was the Mcquiver of this time, not the Merlin in the Disney movie.
Even the Disney Merlin would be cleaved asunder from Arther wielding Excalibur.

Merlin as the real person Merlin?

Dude... what???