Wizards, Naruto, and Game Balance

[DungeonMaester]

"Naruto" was recomended to me by several members of my gaming group, and watching it has caused me to think about the limits of traditional fantasy in terms of game balance.

It seems to me that in most western fantasy literature, the truly powerfull characters are usually wizards. King Arthur is a powerfull fighter, but the limits of Merlin's powers are unknowable. Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are larger than life... as long as Gandalf's not in the same room. Barak, Silk, and Hetar were heroes, but not of the world shattering power of Belgarath the Sorceror. Next to Elminster, even that dual scimitar wielding dark elf sems like a fairly ordinary guy.

With this in mind, it was interesting to see "Master Jeriah the Toad Sage" in a role similar to some sort of Archmage... and to realize that in spite of his powers, he's basically a fighting character.

I've heard a lot of people say that if you want to play in the epic game, you need 9th level spells at your disposal. More generally, a lot of people have commented that Wizards become more and more powerfull at higher levels. In my personal opinion, that's a lot less so in 3e than in 1e, but still a valid point.

With Bo9S, we saw a little bit about how fighting "powers" can work. A lot of things about Naruto remind me of things in the Bo9S. I don't want fighters in general to use things like a "summoning jutsu," but I would like to see a 4e 30th level fighter be equally powerfull and interesting as a 4e 30th level Wizard, Cleric, or Warlock.

If Bo9S is an indication of how they might accomplish this in 4e, I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

I think it is funny how players feel like they need to have magic/ supernatural power to be some one.

According a a AD&D article, Gandalf was a 5th level MU. Krusk would have a field day creaming him...And gleefully smashing his way through Suron's army since they are all 1hd orcs and some giants. Drizz't would slap to death Merlin who would only have a handful of Alchemical items to attack and defend with.

---Rusty

 

[Hussar]

I think it is funny how players feel like they need to have magic/ supernatural power to be some one.

According a a AD&D article, Gandalf was a 5th level MU. Krusk would have a field day creaming him...And gleefully smashing his way through Suron's army since they are all 1hd orcs and some giants. Drizz't would slap to death Merlin who would only have a handful of Alchemical items to attack and defend with.

---Rusty

I believe there was an old Dragon article that pegged Gandalf as a druid

Doesn't make it right though. Someone who is an angel, dances one on one with a balrog and can tame Shadowfax is NOT a 5th level MU.

And, which Merlin are you referring to? The one who could change his shape, appear as just about anyone, charm kings into letting people sleep with his wife or some other Merlin that didn't do all that?

Isn't it funny that when people try to talk about how low powered these archetypes are, they ignore the source material and state these things as straight up facts?

 

[twistnack]

Fans of Naruto might want to take a look at 666 Satan (aka O-Parts Hunter in America) by Seishi Kishimoto (twin brother Naruto creator Masashi Kishimoto). It's interesting comparing the similarities and differences in their styles and characters.

 

[WhatGravitas]

With this in mind, it was interesting to see "Master Jeriah the Toad Sage" in a role similar to some sort of Archmage... and to realize that in spite of his powers, he's basically a fighting character.

While I'm not really liking Naruto... I can say that these characters are totally Rogue/Wizard multiclasses, using a spellpoint system. Hey, they read friggin' scrolls with magic powers. And do that "sneak around"-shtick.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Steely Dan]

You win the thread, and I want to be Peace.

Peace wants love – will help…

 

[Patlin]

And, which Merlin are you referring to? The one who could change his shape, appear as just about anyone, charm kings into letting people sleep with his wife or some other Merlin that didn't do all that?

Heck, given that we're talking about kid stuff in this thread, how about "The Sword in the Stone" where Merlin engages in a wizard duel using the 9th level Shapechange spell.

I never intended to suggest you needed magical or supernatural powers to be somebody, btw. My point was that our general expectations as supported by most western fantasy literature tend to suggest overpowered sellcasters at high level. Naruto has some different expectations that would support a more even balancing of the classes. (As has been pointed out by others, the Rock Lee character is awesome, even though unlike the majority he has no supernatural powers.)

I hope 4e achieves a good balance between the classes.

 

[Steely Dan]

I believe there was an old Dragon article that pegged Gandalf as a druid

He's the ultimate DM tool/NPC.

As we all know LotR translates horribly into D&D rules (well the magic at least), but I would peg Gandy as an Outsider/Celestial (no classes).

 

[WayneLigon]

According a a AD&D article, Gandalf was a 5th level MU. Krusk would have a field day creaming him...And gleefully smashing his way through Suron's army since they are all 1hd orcs and some giants. Drizz't would slap to death Merlin who would only have a handful of Alchemical items to attack and defend with.

We've discussed this exact point in a couple other recent threads, but the upshot of it is that the person who wrote that article was either completely missing the point or being deliberately sarcastic. The short version is that Gandalf is an aberration whose demonstrated powers don't need to be considered, since they are minor things he could do. He was prevented from using the full range of his ability since that would allow Sauron to do the same; if both of them actually cut loose with their full powers, it was very likely that they'd literally break the world.

The concept of overarching restraint usually imposed frmo the outside or for fear of 'upsetting the balance' is very prevalent in high fantasy, including the Arthurian Merlin, because it allows the author to show magical effects yet not overshadow the other characters completely. If literary characters behaved like most poorly-played RPG characters, then all we'd ever see would be the equivilant of 'All Power Attack All The Time', where they constantly use their biggest guns to solve every problem. It would get rather boring very quickly.

 

[Lord Zack]

Rock Lee's powers may not be supernatural, but they're certainly superhuman. The first gate, the Gate of Opening quintuples his speed and strength. The other gates have other superhuman abilities like increasing stamina, and allowing the user to go faster than the speed of sound. It's certainly different than the other ninja abilities we see, but argueably no less formidable.

 

[Dragonblade]

Heh, whoever told you this is wrong. While there are certainly a number of similarities between the two (which are probably deliberate, considering that Masashi Kishimoto claims he has been greatly inspired by the works of Akira Toriyama, among other people), there are a number of major differences. The fact that Naruto is far more focused on character growth, psychology, and relationships than Dragonball by a significant degree, and that the battles in Naruto are rooted in ideological conflict and personal motivation, rather than the strict good vs. evil of Dragonball. As others have said, the characters in Naruto all have unique abilities and styles, and use them in very tactical battles. Dragonball characters tend to all use punches, flight, and energy blasts, and battles are pretty much slug-fests.

Also, the power scale in Naruto doesnt even resemble Dragonball. Dragonball has an exponentially diverging power scale, based on uniquely powerful characters gaining so much strength through obscure, insane training methods and unlimited super-transformations that no one can match them. As Dragonball progresses, fewer and fewer characters can even keep up with the rising power, mostly leaving Goku and Vegeta as the only real combatants. Being able to shrug off bullets and level cities is considered the power level of the average grunt soldier, and main characters can blow up planets.

Naruto, on the other hand, has a very shallow power curve which flattens out quickly, and most power increases occur because of learning new techniques and methods of attack. Every character is mortal and subject to being killed by a single stab or solid blow, and any increase beyond a certain level of power comes at incredible cost and risk. Pretty much all of the characters are soldiers of equivalent power who work in an organization, and the main character is grunt who is much weaker than the elite ninja, and aspires to become recognized (as opposed to Goku from Dragonball, who is just strong, and everyone aspires to be him).

Also, the characters in Naruto all come from a wel-established community, and they all have family and traditions which highly influences the plot and the character's abiities (and is a major theme of the manga). In Dragonball, there are only one or two characters who really have a family at the start, and only one or two families which really matter once the story starts crossing genreations.

I could probably keep listing differences for a while, really.

Certainly, Naruto and Dragonball have similrities, but the similarities are the superficial elements, and the differences are fundamental.

Excellent summation of the differences! I vastly prefer Naruto to Dragonball for all the reasons you cite. In fact, the ridiculous power escalation in Dragonball Z always struck me somewhat humorously as what would happen in an RPG game if it was taken over by munchkin players and they had a DM who indulged them. Granted a lot of anime features over the top power ups and crazy superhuman fights, but Dragonball Z was just ridiculous.