Wizards still cast Enchantment, Illusions, Necromancy

[Steely Dan]

Pity. Wizards are still broken, as they have been since 1975.

What makes you think 4th Ed wizards will be the broken mess they have always been?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Both methods are useful. The advantage of having, say, a seperate "Summoner" class is that summoning is his main bag, and since he's not loaded down with the ability to turn people invisible and toss meteor swarms around, he can be balanced as being really awesome at summoning.

This.

Think of the True Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. You can't create this class with a wizard as a base, but it oozes Necromancy in all the ways you would want a Necromancer to do. It gives you power over undead, it gives you cleric spells, it transforms you into a lich, it is THE necromancer. And it can do that because it's not lugging around extra baggage that it doesn't need. It can't cast Magic Missile. It doesn't need to be able to.

When I think of an Illusionist, I think of someone who is, from the ground up, very different from any other wizard. He has stealth skills, he has unique powers, he's not a wizard who can cast one more Invisibility per day, he is a master of arcane magic who is made of deception and red herrings.

Similarly, a Summoner isn't just a guy who can call one extra badger. It's a guy who knows about the fabric of reality, the planes beyond, who makes deals with extraplanar entities and summons them to do his bidding through a series of contracts and favors.

These aren't just other flavors of wizard. And if a wizard could do all of this, the wizard would be too potent. They are, naturally, different classes.

As long as Wizards can still be the guys in the arcane towers studying books and doing things Man Was Not Meant To Mess With, they'll be nicely niched for me.

This really doesn't help. Just because some of us don't want to be playing WoW on tabletop doesn't mean we're expecting a character better than everyone else's.

What the heck does WoW have to do with anything?

 

[Doug McCrae]

What makes you think 4th Ed wizards will be the broken mess they have always been?

I'm concerned because it looks like they'll still be effective in a lot of areas. My feeling is that wizards need to lose about 75% of the PHB areas in which they are proficient.

Currently wizards can do everything except healing - damage (including SoDs), area effects, battlefield control, mind control (AKA foe to friend), buffs, debuffs, transportation, divination, illusion, protection and 'utility'.

I think they should be left with 3 of these, probably damage, area effects and battlefield control.

 

[Traycor]

If a "smattering" of classic enchantments, illusions, necromancy spells, and so on isn't enough, then you're not really talking about playing a "generalist." You're talking about either playing a non-evocation specialist (which we already know will be available through splatbooks and such), or basically abusing the way 3e wizards worked (through wands, scrolls, and daily spell selection) to do "specialize in everything," which you really can't argue ISN'T overpowered.

This.

 

[Steely Dan]

I'm concerned because it looks like they'll still be effective in a lot of areas.

Really, I thought many people (not me) were upset because they are actually taking away the all encompassing wizard of yore (taking away necromancy, enchantment and heavy divination/illusion etc)?

 

[Lord Zack]

Here's how I think different specialists should be done in 4e:

Illusionist/Enchantment/maybe Divination: Bard
Necromancy/Conjuration: Warlock (Depends on the Pact, Necromancy could be a Death Pact) (Actually, I'm not sure if this would work for those that don't like the idea of a pact, so they're could be a Necromancer class, but I think of the Warlock being a good place for "dark magic")
Abjuration/Conjuration/Transmutation: Needs a Name (An Arcane Leader)

 

[TwoSix]

Really, I thought many people (not me) were upset because they are actually taking away the all encompassing wizard of yore (taking away necromancy, enchantment and heavy divination/illusion etc)?

Many people are upset that they're taking stuff away from the wizard. Doug seems to have the opposite issue, that they're not taking enough away.

 

[Incenjucar]

Presumably, the 4E "wizard" (I haven't been keeping up with what they're calling things) is more or less a "mage." They aren't evokers anymore than a paladin is a fighter, but they're much more fightery than a cleric is.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually replaced the wizard concept with a proper generalist LATER, but they have to work out like eight different unique specialists FIRST, and that's going to take longer than anyone will accept.

 

[Counterspin]

The wizard has always been broken because of his ability to outshine people at their roles, which is rooted in his huge flexibility. Slice him up, I say. I always preferred the subclasses anyway. Generalist wizards leave me uninterested.

 

[Traycor]

Classic Illussion Spells

• Color Spray
• Blur
• Invisibility
• Minor Image
• Mirror Image
• Major Image
• Phantasmal Killer
• Persistant Image
• Mislead
• Shadow Walk
• Project Image
• Weird

Color Spray, Blur, and Invisibility I fully expect to see for the wizard. But the various Image spells are unlikely. Perhaps we will see some of them as rituals, but I doubt we will get the whole line. Phantasmal Killer was of the old "save or die" variety that will be going away. Shadow Walk is an interesting choice that could make a good ritual, but I would rather leave that to a class focused on Illusion and leave the teleporting to the wizard.

Classic Necromancy Spell

• Cause Fear
• Ghoul Touch
• Scare
• Vampiric Touch
• Enervation*
• Fear
• Symbol of Pain
• Eyebite
• Symbol of Fear
• Undeath to Death
• Finger of Death*
• Horrid Wilting
• Energy Drain*
• Wail of the Banshee*

I like your necro list, but it may be too ambitious on some of the more powerful Necro spells. I expect things like fear, but not Symbol of Fear or Eyebite. I actually don't expect to see many necro spells make the wiz list, simply because most of the classic necro spells were stripped out of the game in 4E. Here's my vote for "Ray of Enfeeblement". That spell has saved my hide so many times...

Classic Conjuration Spells (other than summons)

• Grease
• Obscuring Mist
• Mage Armor
• Mount
• Fog Cloud
• Glitterdust
• Web
• Phantom Steed
• Sleet Storm
• Stinking Cloud
• Dimensional Door **
• Evard's Black Tentacles
• Solid Fog
• Cloudkill
• Wall of Stone
• Acid Fog
• Wall of Iron
• Incendiary Cloud
• Maze
• Gate ***

Many of the classic conjurations are the types of spells that will become rituals in 4E. I expect to see lots and lots of conjurations on the wizo ritual list.