Wizards still cast Enchantment, Illusions, Necromancy

[Ridley's Cohort]

OK, that's a bit much, but I do feel that the ability of arcane magic to "do everything" leads to godawful stepping on every other classes toes. I definitely look forward to honest-to-goodness magical specialists that can actually be distinguished from a generalist by more than a bonus spell per level.

IMO the fundamental problem is that the Wizard has access to too many very powerful options. There is "no room" to boost up the Specialist without reaching insanity.

Consider the 1e Illusionist. That class accessed a number of powerful illusions with a spell level of 1 or 2 lower than the Wizard. Plus he got some special spells that the Wizard did not get at all, e.g. shadow magic. That classed more or less worked (except for the fact that Illusions were such a pain in the arse to adjudicate).

Imagine trying to do that with the Wizard class. Evocationists casting Fireballs as 2nd level spells? That is by far the most sane example.

Psionics had the right general approach, but I think it could be taken further. Certain spells/powers are generally available. A Specialist gets a few a little earlier and the only access to a few special items.

 

[Traycor]

Psionics had the right general approach, but I think it could be taken further. Certain spells/powers are generally available. A Specialist gets a few a little earlier and the only access to a few special items.

I liked that approach as well, but I would hope 4E would go even further. Unique class abilities and widely varrying spell lists that will make for truely unique classes.

I would really hate for, say, an Illusionist class to just feel like a wizard with quirks. Just as a Warlock doesn't have the feel of a wizard, neither should a Necromancer or an Illusionist.

 

[Gloombunny]

Assuming bards aren't THE illusionist class.

I really, really hope they aren't. Saddling illusion mages with musical crap would be a horrible thing to do.

 

[Voss]

The problem with both the wizard and psion in 3.5 is that they are generalists that can do *everything*. Any challenge can be faced with adequate preparation. Specialist wizards at least lost a little something to do more, but they didn't feel like true specialists. Careful spell selection meant you could do pretty much anything a generalist could do, and you had the extra spells/day.

Both mechanically and 'feel'-wise, thats a poor way to go.

 

[Nightmare Toilet]

I like the idea of specialists who find ways to use their specialty to cover things, like necromancer using hardened bone armor, for one cheap example.

But what I really want to see is a real copromancer specialist! And she could be quite a powerful mage, too with lots of unique and deadly spells and summons and effects.

 

[Traycor]

I really, really hope they aren't. Saddling illusion mages with musical crap would be a horrible thing to do.

In the Worlds & Monsters thread, there is mention of a power source called shadow. Perhaps this could be the source of magic for an Illusionist and Necromancer class.

I would like that very much! Not only would those two specialists have different abilities from a wizard, but they would be using an entirely differnt source to cast their spells (shadow source vs arcane source).

 

[TwoSix]

In the Worlds & Monsters thread, there is mention of a power source called shadow. Perhaps this could be the source of magic for an Illusionist and Necromancer class.

I would like that very much! Not only would those two specialists have different abilities from a wizard, but they would be using an entirely differnt source to cast their spells (shadow source vs arcane source).

Personally, I think a necromancer could make an excellent shadow leader. Using shadow abilities to leech life force from enemies, and then transfer that power back to his allies.

 

[ruleslawyer]

IMO the fundamental problem is that the Wizard has access to too many very powerful options. There is "no room" to boost up the Specialist without reaching insanity.

Yes, but the point is that the specialist shouldn't be boosted, as the wizard is currently too powerful. Effectively, forcing casters into specialized subsets of the wizard's (or cleric's, or druid's) abilities is a nerf, but one that has been needed for quite some time.

 

[FourthBear]

The problem with both the wizard and psion in 3.5 is that they are generalists that can do *everything*. Any challenge can be faced with adequate preparation. Specialist wizards at least lost a little something to do more, but they didn't feel like true specialists. Careful spell selection meant you could do pretty much anything a generalist could do, and you had the extra spells/day.

For 2e and 3e specialists, I always felt that the primary problem wasn't so much that they could what a generalist could do (although that was certainly a problem, the weak bonuses granted by specialization often didn't make up for giving up other schools, IMO). It was that a generalist could do whatever the specialist could do. Because of the unified Wiz/Sor spell list, any time your master specialist necromancer developed a 9th level necromancy spell, it would immediately be listed as Wiz/Sor 9. Which meant all it would take is for any generalist (or non-necromancer specialist not opposing necromancy) to find a copy and learn it. And voila! they'll be casting your specialist spell darn near as well as you would. There was pretty much no specialist derived advantage in casting spells from your school. Everything came from feat and magical item selection (which could be duplicated by the generalist if they so chose and often weren't that strong an effect anyway).

I'm a big fan of giving other classes magical niches of their own. If the Wizard class is defined as broadly as it has been in 2e and 3e, it will occupy pretty much all niches simultaneously (and I've certainly seen enough people complaining about Wizards not having access even to the Cleric and Druid's niches!), leaving no room for other classes to stand out.

 

[simply not edible]

But what I really want to see is a real copromancer specialist! And she could be quite a powerful mage, too with lots of unique and deadly spells and summons and effects.

Wait, you want someone who does crap-magic?