Wizards: What happens when they lose their spellbooks?

[clark411]

Destroying PC loot outright with no hope of avoidance because it fits what you want, especially spellbooks and other life's blood / long term achievements is a Very Very Bad Idea. The occasional loss is fine.. the occasional set back is fine, but "Things will be Different Around Here" is a statement you don't want to make by putting frowns on everyone else at the table.

If they have too many items for their level, determine what level they should be to have what they do, and figure on lessening their treasure input until they meet that figure. Level 6 party with level 8 wealth? Fine, minimal treasure till 8th level. Problem Solved. If there's too much of a gap, or a ridonkulous item in game that just should not be, then i take exception.. but not everything.

And to not make it seem like you're being too cruel, one time use items like potions and lil glass beads that shatter when you cast magic missiles out of them make great doohicks for players.

... and just so i'm not saying Adventuring life is full of candy and huggles.. introduce appropriate CR challenges that would do what you want and still may be stopped by the PCs. An APL 7 party vs a Fighter 7 with a Sunder feat or a lot of rust monsters is fine. It's the Level "Big" baddies that charge in, bonk the players on the head, drag em off, strip em, lock em up, burn their stuff, and then provide some silly foible that allow the PCs to escape with their lives that's not cool.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm, in my games such things are usually resolved by player retreats in dire situation where one or two corpses are left behind (pretty often with the party cash).

 

[Urbannen]

My feeling is that if the characters have "too much" equipment relative to their level, then they should be considered higher level for purposes of determining EL. If the characters have the relative power of 9th level characters, but they are all 6th level, then give them CR 9 encounters. Then give them XP as though the encounters were 6th level.

The problem isn't that you as a DM can't have fun running a high level game. The problem is you can't have fun running the characters against CR 6 things when their de facto level is 9.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

Perhaps some details as to the "monty-haulness" of the group would produce more detailed suggestions?

I can understand the players not wanting to restart with new characters for a new GM when their current situation is 'monty-haul'.

I can understand you, as a new GM, not wanting to run the party with all these items.

Capturing and looting is very hurtful to the player/gm relationship. You'd be almost as bad off if you arbitrarily TPK'd them and told them to make a first level character to restart.

There's many good suggestions here for a generic approach to leveling out their magic items to suit you better, and no need to re-hash those. I'd recommend the previously mentioned: Ramp up the EL's, and through item destroying monsters at them. They'll get whittled down (do it SLOW) eventually, and then you'll all be comfortable as you gradually drop EL's down to their level, and they lose items that you don't want them to have. Be extremely carefuly to evaluate where they 'should be' in your opinion, and where they are, then take them down one or two notches at a time until they get down where you want them to be. Do it slowly enough, and they may never twig to it.

Alternatively, insist that any new characters be first level, then whittle out characters one by one - this path has dangers though, and is not advisable.

Give us some details on the party and possesions and we can probably be quite a bit more specific in our suggestions as to how to handle the situation.

 

[Spatzimaus]

You need to be more specific: when you say Monty Haul, do you mean the "8th level characters having +3-equivalent weapons" variety or the "we roll d30s for hit points and item plusses" variety? I'm assuming it's the first variety.

Railroading is the worst way to run adventures. If you arbitrarily remove a large fraction of the PC's equipment through no fault of their own, it'll never turn out well.
I had a DM once who decided that as a plot point, my character (a Diviner) was going to fall off a cliff; it was the way he had decided we'd find the secret illusion-covered cave. Whenever I'd do a divination, he'd find some way to work that in there.
Well, the time comes and I'm walking along the mountain trail. He tells me to make a Balance check. I make it easily. He tells me to make another. (Of course, no one else in the group was asked to do so...). I make it again. At this point he just gives up and has the mountainside crumble under me, so I fall no matter what.

But, this whole railroading issue can be bypassed. If you're talking short-term solutions, then the ooze-n-Sunder method works. If you're looking long-term, just pick your next few adventures carefully. Here are some possibilities:

> Put them in a combat-light situation, like something involving local politics in a corrupt city. These sorts of adventures are entertaining in their own right, and if this group has done nothing but dungeon crawls, it'll be a nice change of pace for them. Plus, it's a transition to the high-level adventuring style. But more importantly, no loot! The most dangerous enemy my players have is a mid-level Aristocrat. Sure, they could crush him in a fight, but why would he bother fighting them?

> If you do have a combat-oriented adventure, make them fight oozes, undead, constructs, or animals/beasts/magical beasts. If you put humanoids in there, make them be mostly Monks, Druids, and Sorcerers, or give templates. None of these will be expected to have large amounts of loot. If you DO have weapon-bearing enemies, have enchantments like Unholy that prevent players from using them afterwards.

> Remember, you can get people to doing things because they need to be done, not because of any guaranteed reward. For example, maybe the Cleric's church is having problems with the local authorities, and they picked him to resolve the situation. He has no choice; if he refuses, there go all of his spells, so the party will do the job even if there's no compensation. While in a sense this is railroading, it's IN-GAME railroading that leads to other plot points; it's something their players would choose to do anyway given their personalities.

You can combine all of these into one package. A small town is being secretly menaced by a Weretiger (with Druid levels), who managed to curse a large number of townsfolk last month; at the last full moon, they killed a good number of people. The Cleric's church asks him to escort a group of healers to the town to break the curses on the next full moon, since they missed the 3-day window for Remove Disease. The party is supplied with masterwork silver weapons, and is told that if anything goes wrong to try to take the townsfolk alive for the healers to deal with (curing requires the afflicted to make a Will save, DC 20, each time Remove Curse is cast on them, so it might take several attempts.)
The ten people who were thought to be cursed are caged, and when the full moon comes they revert; but, so do about 20 other people, including the senior priest (Clr 5) and several town guards (War 2); after some fighting, all of them run off into the woods to join their "father".

There. Adventure with very little loot, that the players would want to take part in anyway. Any weapons they already have are nearly useless (DR 5/silver on the afflicted, 10/silver on the natural lycanthrope). And, it's a challenge to take the people alive, so you're justified in giving good XP out; a few adventures like this, and their equipment will be average for their level, without anything actually being taken away from them.

 

[reiella]

Hmm.

Earth Elementals get Sunder, make use of it.

Steal a single prized (and overpowered) item from each player, adventure plot to recover the item, party levels up to the point where item isn't overpowered anymore, and gets it back.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction handles most of the overpowered magic items. It is harsh and expect the party to get angry about it.

Charity. If the party is particularly good and the players understanding you can get away with this one. Have some of the particularly powerful items be 'needed'/requested by some good agency for some ritualized magic to better the Whole of People. As a side boon, give the party Credit lee-way on resurrection/healing magics (roughly equal to the charity donation) to help recoup. It does give the party a better lifespan, but they still "get something" out of losing their favorite toys.

New game. You may want to consider this as well. Changing theme and tone of a game can be difficult and frustrating for all involved.

 

[MerakSpielman]

There is no need to take away their stuff. That only makes them bitter and resentful, and as a new DM, you need to maintain high morale. Until such a time as your campaign is so fun they feel priveleged just to be a part of it, don't do anything so obviously nasty.

Emphasis on obviously... This is a 2 part plan.

Part 1: As Urbannen said above, why not just assume the party is 4 or so levels higher than they are when creating encounters? Discover the level of difficulty at which they have to sweat and strain to keep their characters alive. That line is there somewhere, go and find it!

Part 2: Don't give them any new treasure for a few levels. I mean, throw them a bone now and then, but nothing significant. Use monsters that fit naturally with your plot, are powerful, and don't collect treasure to fulfill the objectives of Part 1.

Note: You're all playing this game to have fun. If they will only enjoy themselves with a super-powered, monty-haul campaign, I strongly suggest you find a way to make it happen that is fun for you, too.

 

[Minsc]

Note: You're all playing this game to have fun. If they will only enjoy themselves with a super-powered, monty-haul campaign, I strongly suggest you find a way to make it happen that is fun for you, too.

I don't think my message was given clear enough. These players are not munchkins, they're not min-maxers. The old DM just handed out magical items as if it were going out of style (I'm talking FRCS looks like a low magic setting), while almost every NPC/villian had no magical items. The campaign has been a breeze for these over-powered characters. The Paladin had a Holy Sword by level 5, things like that.


I'm going to talk to them before I run the game, to make sure they won't mind the differences. I'm going to have the Wizard find his spellbook intact. The Paladin is NOT going to get his Holy Sword back, at least not for a long time. The Dwarven Barbarian is not going to get back his Great Cleaving +4 Battle Axe and his +3 returning Hammer (he dual weilds, and throws the hammer when there are ranged enemies) back. His +3 Adamantite Breastplate? -- sorry.

As I said, I'm going to let them know this beforehand. I'm still going to hand out some decent stuff. I'm not a big fan of low magic stuff -- I like a FRCS-level of magic, maybe a tad less. The Wizard has been the biggest complainer about the former DM's style, not any of the warrior types. The warriors are the uber-powerful guys, and the wizard has been almost nothing, and it isn't the Wizard players fault, either. The warrior types even notice that they're overshadowing the Wizard, and they don't want to hog all the glory, either. I really don't think they're going to be complaining (unless it's in character) if I balance the party out by taking away a few items.

My idea will be that I'll run it with the above plan, or I'll start a new campaign. No one else in the group is willing to DM.

It's a tough choice, but they're going to have to make it.

 

[DM2]

Ah..you really should have listed those outrageous items ahead of time...it would have saved a lot of people from thinking you were just a DM that wanted to arbitrarily power down his players. Which isn't unheard of around here...

DM2

 

[Gwarok]

For some of the items, especially thye Holy Sword, my plan would be to have someone else with a rightful claim to it want it back. The ancient blade of Blagot the Noble does not belong in the hands of a neophyte, some stronger paladin could come to claim it as his.

Conversely, some young players with Uber gear are ripe for a setup and rob. This is quite a bit like just taking fom them, but if you play it right you have the seeds for future adventures. They know who did it they know where to find it later, just need to get a few levels and track down the batserd that ripped em off. This has the added benifit of not chapping the wizard, since the thieves hired to steal from the PC's can reasonably just be after the shiny, sharp, legendary stuff. Plus for at least the first adventure, the wizard's importance will skyrocket as they struggle to get info and make headway.