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Wonder Woman Out Dec 16th


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You're moving the goalposts. You were talking about justifying its length a minute ago.

No, I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm addressing multiple issues that I had with the movie. The length is but one issue. The plot meanders quite a bit for the first half, feeling like it isn't really going anywhere. It feels as if the main plot is not big enough to fill its run time, and it feels like a lot could have been cut (or have been scripted more tightly to be part of the main plot).

But the plot itself also feels hokey, and not befitting a big blockbuster. It feels like something more at home in an episode of supergirl. Thats not to say that everything in this movie is bad. Gal Gadot is still perfect as WW, and the idea of her having to sacrifice her one love all over again adds some much needed weight. But there is never really any doubt what choice Diana will ultimately make, because as a character she is simply written too perfectly for that. And I feel that undermines some of the plot's potential.

Cheetah's inclusion feels unnecessary. The movie already has one villain, although not one that WW can physically fight. Cheetah seems forced into the plot for that purpose only, and her sudden turn to the dark side comes completely out of left field. Ultimately, the movie kind of feels like Batman Returns. But without Burton's artsy style, or Michelle Pfeiffer's memorable performance.

Fair. It's an adversarial thread with a lot of nonsense being thrown around. Apologies!

Is there? :S

I mean, I may have been in the minority thinking The Mandalorian was poorly written, but on this movie it seems a lot of people seem to have similar criticism of the movie as me. There seems to be consensus.

Not that other people's opinions affect my own opinion of the movie. But it seems to me the arguments made against this movie are shared by a large portion of people who have seen it.
 
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And now you're editing your posts faster than I can reply to them (my quote doesn't match what's now there) so I'll leave you to it.

My apologies. I'm typing on a phone, so I tend to make lots of edits. And sometimes I'll think of something extra I'd like to say on the matter. But I consider it poor forum etiquette to make multiple posts in a row, rather than add to the post that is already there. I also have a habit of rereading my own posts multiple times, and fixing grammar and sentence structure.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
From the mixed reception here and elsewhere it makes those advance critiic reviews fairly useless.

Lots of countries seem to have HBO or people going to movies theatres. I'll assume they used VPNs to access HBO Max right?
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Indeed. I've even seen one of those advance reviews claim that the movie is better than the first WW. Even if you like WW84, I think that is a difficult position to hold. Makes you wonder if they saw the same movie.

Yeah advance reviews usually go to friendly critics. Makes their reviews completely pointless though if they're to positive.

First WW was quite fun so long tradition of disappointing sequel.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Indeed. I've even seen one of those advance reviews claim that the movie is better than the first WW. Even if you like WW84, I think that is a difficult position to hold. Makes you wonder if they saw the same movie.
I’d say it’s more fun than the first one, which is a huge factor for a lot of people.
 

I've been thinking a lot about why this movie didn't work for me. I think the wheels come off the bus the moment Chris Pine is added into the plot.

The issue of consent

For some reason, when Diana wishes to see her lover again, he reincarnates into someone elses body. I don't know why he doesn't just appear, as this plot point only creates a ton of moral dilemmas for the story that the movie ignores. It would have been so much easier if he had just appeared. But because he inhabits someone elses body, and because neither the movie nor Wonder Woman address this, Diana comes off as a monster.

First of all, she has sex with him. It isn't explicitly shown, but she shares her bed with him, and it is implied. This is nonconsensual sex that she is having with someone who is possessed by someone else. This is some Book of Vile Darkness level of atrocity, but she does not seem bothered by it in the least.

Then the movie takes a strange (and in my opinion unnecessary) detour to Cairo, where Chris Pine is involved in an attack on a military convoy, despite having no super powers himself. What makes this worse, is that it is someone elses body that is being endangered without their consent. Again, Diana seems unphased by this. Additionally, just the image of Chris Pine ramming a military vehicle with a normal car, and kicking guns atop said armored vehicle is just really silly. This is something Diana clearly can do on her own, and yet this innocent man's body is being risked for no good reason.

Having Diana doing her sky ballet in a skimpy outfit, while in a country where you would be immediately arrested and tortured for showing so much skin, seems especially tonedeath. It is made more jarring by her being side by side with these fully clothed people, who would be appalled by such an outfit in real life. The movie kind of expects the audience to ignore everything they know about modern Egypt.

The problems with WW's wish

The movie then makes another U-turn, back to the United States. It is here that the movie struggles the most with building towards its conclusion.

We have an action scene at the White House, where again Chris Pine's body is risked fatal injury, and Wonder Woman realizes how weak she has become. She is bested by Barbara at this point, which suggest to me that had she been at full power, she would have beaten her easily. The way it is shot, Chris Pine pretty much holds his own during this fight, and they are almost equal in power.

The movie then has Wonder Woman forced to make a difficult decision; to give up her wish (and Chris Pine) and get her powers back. And this is where it all goes wrong. It doesn't really feel like she needs her powers to defeat Pedro Pascal, since he has no super powers of his own (and in the end, she doesn't, even when she has her powers back). And yet she chooses to give up Chris Pine, but we are never shown a scene of him disappearing. He kind of just vanishes from the movie inexplicitly, as if the actor simply walked off stage and never returned for further filming. It is really bizarre. Ultimately what could have been the movie's emotional climax is completely missing. As if a film reel got lost.

More plot problems arise as Pedro Pascal unfolds his hokey master plan. Basically the movie has established that Pedro Pascal needs to have physical contact with people to answer their wishes, and that plot points comes to bite them in the butt. They come up with a far fetched dialogue about satelites sending out particles, which are then kind of like touching people, despite it being absolutely not. But the movie expect us to kind of skim over that detail, after making such a big deal out of it.

Then the movie moves to the location of the satelites, where Wonder Woman faces off against Barbara. It is very obvious that Barbara has simply been inserted in order to give WW someone to fight, and to validate why she needs her powers back. It illustrates a problem with the main antagonist of the movie that could have been fixed with better writing.

She also shows up in her new golden armor. The armor is one of several instances in this film where something is just randomly introduced with very little explanation. WW just has this armor lying around, just as she can suddenly turn a jet invisible, and can fly all of a sudden. Why does she need the armor, if she has her powers back? Also, where is her sword? Didn't she have a sword in the last movie?

A silly incoherent ending

Then we get our inevitable face off with Pedro Pascal, where the movie expect us to ignore that he speaks English, and most of the world would not be able to understand him anyway. There is an unexplained fan blowing really hard offscreen, making it impossible for WW to get near him, despite having all her powers back. There also is this weird blue beam in the center of the room, that kind of looks like a doomsday weapon of some sort.

Diana uses the Lasso of Truth to get Pedro to take his wish back. For some reason this also reverts everyone elses wishes, as WW delivers an extremely long tedious monologue filled with empty platitudes, that should have been cut down by 50%. The movie ignores the fact that there are probably a lot of people in the world who made none-selfish wishes; such as wishing for world peace, or a better environment, or a cure for cancer, or for the life of one of their loved ones to be saved. All of that is reverted, and no overly long speech filled with empty platitudes can undo all that suffering.

In a way, WW is a villain in this movie. Oh, and she can suddenly fly! Roll credits!

In conclusion

I think what bothers me the most, is that the first Wonder Woman movie was a pretty strong feminist film. It portrayed WW as a woman who didn't really need a man, while still having a male love interest. It showed the world that you can have both. It had some pretty strong representation. WW84 on the other hand, feels like several steps backward. Throughout the film she needs Chris Pine, and the movie kind of flirts with a relationship with Barbara briefly, before quickly walking it back. The movie is also filled with a lot of men harassing women. It is very unpleasant.

The movie also aludes in a not so subtle way, to Donald Trump. They go out of their way to make Pedro Pascal resemble him, not just with the hair, but by being a giant egomaniac and fraud. It is very obvious what they're doing here, but then to have Pedro be stopped by the love for his son, kind of breaks what ever comparison they were going for. What a mess.

Such a shame.
 
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ModernApathy

Explorer
I liked the movie a lot. One of DC's better efforts for me.
It was a lot of fun, I thought it did a great job of capturing the 80's Saturday morning cartoon vibe.

The plot was gonzo, but in a way that I enjoyed.
I liked that the villain wasn't really any one single person, but rather the greed and selfishness in all of us.
Pretty relevant with everything happening in the world at the moment, and tied in perfectly with the 80's theme.
 

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