Dragonlance WotC Officially Confirms Takhisis and Tiamat Are The Same

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today, WotC is putting its foot down and saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are, indeed, the same being.



Of course, this is not an opinion universally held. Dragonlance co-creator Margaret Weis emphatically stated that "TAKHISIS IS NOT TIAMAT, DAMN IT!"

Fizban's Treasuryof Dragons confirms that the beings echo across various settings.

D&D 5E - Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the...

www.enworld.org

 

[Davies]

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

I'm guessing that Grubb felt enough ownership of the original Chromatic Dragon concept that he felt slighted when Tracy renamed her and ran with the concept to the point that the latter considered her a different character. If I were Grubb I could definitely see myself going, "hey now, that's still just Tiamat!"

But did Tiamat in Greyhawk or FR ever appear as a beautiful human temptress? That's a pretty big aspect of her character in DL and if it's solely unique to DL then to me it does cement Margaret and Tracy's notion that she really is an evolution into something completely separate from the Chromatic Dragon in other settings.

Not a Forgotten Realms expert myself, but according to the FR fan wiki page, yes. See Tiamat - emphasis mine.

Description section

Tiamat was a unique chromatic dragon, who had one head for each primary color of the most common species of chromatics (black, blue, green, red, white). Each head was able to operate entirely independently of each other and had the powers of a member of the respective race of dragonkind. Her body also had traits in common with a wyvern, including a long tail tipped with a venomous stinger.

She also had three main avatars. The Dark Lady was a mulan woman with long dark hair and completely black eyes. She always wore dark robes and frequently had a seductive smile on her face.

The Chromatic Dragon was a dragon with stubby legs and five heads that could be any combination of head belonging to a chromatic dragon, the skin of each merged into three stripes -- blue-green, gray and purple before they merged again into brown skin that covered her tail. Sometimes, The Chromatic Dragon appeared in the form of Tchazzar when manifesting in Chessenta. The Undying Queen was a dracolich version of The Chromatic Dragon.

Tiamat had three manifestations in Avernus as well, one of which never left the gate to Dis. Her manifestation as Azharul was her other 'public' face used for when foes challenged her to combat, meanwhile her original body remained secluded in her lair.

And a bit further down, under the History section

This state of affairs lasted until 1346 DR when some Untherite cultists managed to summon another aspect of Tiamat to Toril. This aspect, known as the Dark Lady, fomented rebellion all over Unther against the church of Gilgeam. Gilgeam was so hated that the membership in her own church swelled, and Tiamat was elevated to status of a demigoddess. She also took the opportunity to influence the lich Sammaster and his Cult of the Dragon into tracking down the Dracorage mythal.

During the Time of Troubles, after Ao banished the gods from the planes, the Dark Lady was transformed back into her three-headed Untheric avatar, which was promptly slain by Gilgeam's. Even so, her divine essence was somehow divided into three and came to inhabit Tchazzar, Gestaniius and Skuthosiin, three powerful chromatic dragons. Tchazzar devoured the other two, combining the three essences and ushering in the reappearance of Tiamat's more powerful five-headed form, which she used to kill Gilgeam and therefore cause Ao to dissolve the Untheric pantheon completely.

 

[darjr]

From my Greyhawk supplement

 

[darjr]

The “Dragon King” could shape change.

 

[dave2008]

But did Tiamat in Greyhawk or FR ever appear as a beautiful human temptress? That's a pretty big aspect of her character in DL and if it's solely unique to DL then to me it does cement Margaret and Tracy's notion that she really is an evolution into something completely separate from the Chromatic Dragon in other settings.

I agree it was a new aspect at the time, but I see it as extending the lore of Tiamat. And it has been incorporated in the lore of Tiamat since at least 4e.

EDIT: At least 3e. From the 3e Deities and Demigods:

 

[pukunui]

Where did that idea come from? I mean she even helps the heroes take down Venger: The Dragon's Graveyard

Partly from The Rise of Tiamat. Not too sure where else, though.

I’m too young to have watched the cartoon when it first came out. I tried watching it more recently and couldn’t get past the first few episodes. Too cringey. But in those episodes, Tiamat again just seems like more of a hungry, angry beast than a sentient, articulate being.

 

[jaycrockett]

What became Takhisis started as the Chromatic Dragon from the D&D pamphlets prior to getting the name Tiamat in the Monster Manual.

Whoa boy did not know that. Had to go look that up, because the Greyhwak supplement was before my time.
That entry includes that the Dragon queen is striped and has a wyvern tail, and there's also a weird dig on 'women's lib'.

 

[dave2008]

Partly from The Rise of Tiamat. Not too sure where else, though.

I’m too young to have watched the cartoon when it first came out. I tried watching it more recently and couldn’t get past the first few episodes. Too cringey. But in those episodes, Tiamat again just seems like more of a hungry, angry beast than a sentient, articulate being.

Did you watch the clip I posted - it is less than 2 minutes

EDIT: 4e also had some more nuanced lore about the dragon queen

 

[Kai Lord]

From my Greyhawk supplement
View attachment 266906
View attachment 266907

Awesome, thanks for posting!! Shoot I wish that DriveThruRPG offered a POD of that. This deep dive into the history of the various (or singular, if that's your take) Chromatic Dragon/s is really fun!

 

[dave2008]

Awesome, thanks for posting!! Shoot I wish that DriveThruRPG offered a POD of that. This deep dive into the history of the various (or singular, if that's your take) Chromatic Dragon/s is really fun!

Well it is the same description from the Monster Manual:

hmm...I don't see a mention of the wyvern tail which I definitely remember!

I guess it is more implied in the MM: