Dragonlance WotC Officially Confirms Takhisis and Tiamat Are The Same

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today...

It's been an issue in dispute for decades, over various editions of D&D, but WotC has officially confirmed that - at least in 5E - Dragonlance's Takhisis is, indeed, currently Tiamat. In previous editions, Tiamat has varied from being a big dragon to a minor goddess, while Takhisis has been a greater god on Krynn. At times they've been the same entity, and at others different entities. Today, WotC is putting its foot down and saying that Takhisis and Tiamat are, indeed, the same being.



Of course, this is not an opinion universally held. Dragonlance co-creator Margaret Weis emphatically stated that "TAKHISIS IS NOT TIAMAT, DAMN IT!"

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Fizban's Treasuryof Dragons confirms that the beings echo across various settings.

 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That's a quaint way of putting things, but... While Takhisis and Paladine are based on Tiamat and Bahamut, respectively, (or at least on their unnamed original incarnations in OD&D), the lore was different (at the time of DL's inception, there was very little lore on Tiamat and Bahamut—a lot of what we have came later) and abilities do differ (different statblocks, greater deity vs. lesser deity, etc.), and effort was made to made them distinct and grander. DL also assumed a different (if minimally explained) cosmology than the Great Wheel.

So, this retoconning (that apparently started with 1e's Manual of the Planes) to them being the same entity probably feels irritating after all the lore and effort the original DL team put into making them distinct.
Frankly, the power-level difference never mattered to me; they're gods. That said, in 4e, Bahamut and Tiamat are both essentially "greater" deities by the usual classification. By which I mean, 4e doesn't make this distinction. There are gods--male and female, as "goddess" was considered an unnecessary relic of gender-enforced terminology--and there are beings that are less than gods but still divine, such as exarchs and angels. Further, in general, Bahamut and Tiamat have been gaining power over time, and I would argue no small part of that is the depiction of the pantheon-leading five-headed color-coded Evil Queen of Dragons and Tyranny and the one-headed platinum-scaled Good King of Dragons and Heroes as seen in Dragonlance. In which case, one could argue that the comparison would be better phrased as, "Tiamat is Takhisis." It's just that Tiamat's name is more widely-known, because (as noted below) it's more widely used, mostly due to being in the public domain.

Couldn't give two figs about the Great Wheel cosmology. More importantly, it's clear Bahamut and Tiamat don't either. They're actively part of the Great Wheel, the World Tree, Dragonlance, Eberron (though at a distance removed, as with all gods in that setting), the World Axis (as noted above), and others as well. Same for Tiamat. The siblings are no provincial backwater gods, they're all over the place.

Your statements about "all the lore and effort that went into making them distinct" sound like someone trying to cleave apart "well sure, aesthetically, philosophically, and behaviorally they're identical, but in this cosmology there's a whole bunch of history that isn't relevant in any of the others." And I grant that. That doesn't stop them from being multiple incarnations of the same fundamental core. To be clear, I like having multiple incarnations of a common core. I think that's really cool. As I said, I have my own names for slight variations on them (and Io) meant to serve as publishable names in the unlikely event that I ever actually did publish (better to have, and get comfortable, with non-infringing names now so that there can't be any reluctance in ten years when theoretical future me is looking for a publisher.)

Ultimately, it just feels like a really weird insistence that no, Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. The sentiment is silly. There is no shame in Takhisis being Tiamat (or Tiamat being Takhisis, if you prefer that ordering.) If anything, it proves that for all the flak Dragonlance takes for enforcing railroading on the game and overwrought plots etc. etc., it has an unambiguous and enduring legacy: Dragons, dragon gods, dragon people, etc. all grew specifically because Dragonlance left a permanent, positive mark on the growth of D&D.
 

kerleth

Explorer
Ultimately, it just feels like a really weird insistence that no, Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. The sentiment is silly.
Not who you were responding to and I honestly don't feel strongly about the subject. However, I have to say that is not my interpretation of the reaction. First, from what I recall the characters are actually pretty different. Tiamat is basically can't believe it's not hydra Godzilla while Takhisis is a scheming overlord. Sure, they are both shaped the same. But the actual character portrayal is significantly different from my experience. Saying that's just different "history" is like saying two twins who look the same but lead completely different lives are really the same person, the different "history" isn't important. But it's entirely possible that is just due to my limited knowledge.

No the thing that I think is really wrong about this is the specific sentiment quoted above. It seems less to me that people are upset because Takhisis ABSOLUTELY CAN'T "just" be Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY MUST be an Original Character Do Not Steal. Instead they are annoyed that WOTC is saying Takhisis ABSOLUTELY MUST "be" Tiamat. She ABSOLUTELY CAN'T be an Original Character, There Can Be Only One. There is a world of difference between insisting that one thing must be, and disagreeing with someone else insisting one thing must be. The fact those are very different takes doesn't change whether it's fans, creators, corporations, or acid fueled talking spider trees.

Obviously, multiple people have different viewpoints, but that is mostly the vibe I've gotten. Disclaimer that I haven't done in depth research on it. But I have noticed in this thread alone a trend to exaggerate and mock people who are basically just saying "this is unnecessary, stop trying to enforce an ill thought out all encompassing canon on everything, it works better leaving all that alone". The Original Character Do Not steal thing above is an example. It's very clearly a reference to overdramatic fanfiction divas. People like to say don't yuck somebody else's yum. And it's a very good point. But it's also bad to try to force your yum on somebody else's who thinks it's yucky.
 

dave2008

Legend
FYI, I have a draft of Takhisis up for review and comment. I still need to check the CR and do some tweaking, but would love to get some input!

Here you go: Takhisis, the Dragon Queen

PS - this based on the LevelUp (A5e) format which has the Elite trait in place of the mythic trait and it has the bloodied condition and standard maneuver DCs. Just thought I would point that out if you were wondering why there is some odd formatting. All spell hyper links go back to the relevant LevelUp A5e tools page as well.
 

darjr

I crit!
@kerleth well in isolation, maybe.

But all the vitriol being heaped on from Dragonlance “fans” about the art or “wildness” or their misinformed knowledge of the setting, paints an ugly picture. It’s sad.

@dave2008, fyi i significantly edited this from when you liked it.
 
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