WotC should make an online SRD....

[DracoSuave]

I still think it was. The reason? It didn't stop piracy. Nothing will. There will always be piracy. Take a google at Character Builder torrent.

The only garanteed way to stop piracy is to stop producing their product.

Alright, then, so we're in agreement that you cannot stop the piracy.

So your choices are:

Make PDFs, make piracy easier, and compete with pirates with a product that costs the consumer more than what the pirates offer, as well as compete with your own product.

Or, compete with the pirates by offering the convenience of hard cover books, make it harder for them to get the copy up there, and forcing them to use poor quality pdfs that are inconvenient to use and acquire, while focusing on your primary revenue streams.

Seriously. It's really that simple.

To think that a corporation acts because of 'anti-piracy' principles rather than the profit motive is absolutely barmy! It's not even rational!

'But they said it's because of pirates!' and it probably was, but as a 'knee-jerk reaction'? No, there's profit-motive involved there, and probably involved a lot more decision making than 'OH WE FORGOT ABOUT PIRATEBAY.ORG!'

Can piracy be stopped? No. And NO ONE is arguing that it can.

But 'Piracy cannot be stopped' does not logically turn into 'So you should make piracy easier!' What Wizards IS doing is what -video game- companies are starting to do; make piracy less desirable by putting out products and services piracy can't touch. You can't pirate a subscription to DDI. And piracy doesn't make hardcopy well--hard copy IS still very convenient at the -actual- game table.

WOTC is competing with the pirates by dealing where you can't download. And that IS effective. But to claim that 'you can't stop pirates so gimme pdfs' is to put your head in the sand; exactly what you're accusing Wizards of doing.

I still think it was. The reason? It didn't stop piracy. Nothing will. There will always be piracy. Take a google at Character Builder torrent.

The only garanteed way to stop piracy is to stop producing their product.

And they did stop producing the product of PDFs. Now pirates have to manually scan every last page, ending in poor quality copies that lack most of the convenience of a first-hand pdf.

It's a lot more work for no gain.

 

[CovertOps]

I still think it was. The reason? It didn't stop piracy. Nothing will. There will always be piracy. Take a google at Character Builder torrent.

The only garanteed way to stop piracy is to stop producing their product.

Yes. There will always be piracy. The underlying assumption to your claim however is that a company has no influence on how much piracy there will be.

WotC is NOT selling PDFs. Some guy has to scan the book and you wind up with a lower quality product.
Piracy level A.

WotC IS selling PDFs. This means that a full quality product is available.
Piracy level B.

You are suffering from the assumption that A == B. Similar to bootleg movies made by some guy with a camcorder in the theater, less people will want product A due to lack of quality (not searchable in this case).

You also assume that all piracy is the same and therefore a valid comparison. Pirated software is full quality and so falls in to the Piracy level B category. Whichever option WotC takes determines if your comparison is valid. Currently it is not as WotC is pursuing option A.

 

[rjdafoe]

WOTC is competing with the pirates by dealing where you can't download. And that IS effective. But to claim that 'you can't stop pirates so gimme pdfs' is to put your head in the sand; exactly what you're accusing Wizards of doing.

It's a lot more work for no gain.

That is not what I am claming at all. I have said repeatedly to tie it in with DDI.

There are 2 things going on - all of the information is out there is digital format through their CB/MB programs. Are they going to stop producing that?

Also, on one hand, they are trying to get new players, but to me, they are only trying 1/2 way if you have to know what your looking for (that is - actually go to a gaming store) to even get there.

Something is not right there. Wouldn't it be great, to search for books and the D&D books show up under certain categories for some of the digital devices? Wouldn't this have the potential to bring new people into the game?

Sorry, but it is a failing to me that in 2010 there is no digital version of the books. If they were a forward thinking company, they could have had some APP and PDFs available for the iPad launch and take advantage of some of the media surrounding it.

 

[DracoSuave]

That is not what I am claming at all. I have said repeatedly to tie it in with DDI.

There are 2 things going on - all of the information is out there is digital format through their CB/MB programs. Are they going to stop producing that?

No, of course not, because that's a LOT harder to pirate than PDFs which require Copy/Paste, and can be done with literally two keystrokes and an upload.

Hell I don't even think you need to use Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V. That might be too much effort.

Also, on one hand, they are trying to get new players, but to me, they are only trying 1/2 way if you have to know what your looking for (that is - actually go to a gaming store) to even get there.

AND THAT IS WHY PDFS DO NOT CREATE NEW SALES

Something is not right there. Wouldn't it be great, to search for books and the D&D books show up under certain categories for some of the digital devices? Wouldn't this have the potential to bring new people into the game?

It could, but it's not as effective as, say, having a copy of the book sitting there beside the Mensa and mind puzzle books at my local bookstore, inviting curiousity.

I can then open it, look through it, figure out what it is.

Hey, look at that, I opened the book, and read bits of it, and let the book sell me.

The only way to get a PDF to do that is.... DUN DUN DUUUUUUN... Pirating it.

Sorry, but it is a failing to me that in 2010 there is no digital version of the books.

There -are- digital versions of the books.

You just have to steal them.

The consumer decided that.

If they were a forward thinking company, they could have had some APP and PDFs available for the iPad launch and take advantage of some of the media surrounding it.

If they were a forward thinking company with a software development division willing to cut their teeth on an entirely new format you mean.

Things that are not free; What you just suggested.

Making software for an old format (PC) is nowhere NEAR as difficult as making software for a new format.

It has nothing to do with 'forward thinking at all.'

If the -industry- were forward thinking, then you'd have -every- company having digital interractive offerings and tools that make the play of the game simpler and more convenient. You can't single out the ONE company that actually DOES, and can afford to do so, and say they are not forward thinking because they don't have PDFs, but another company that is NOT the market leader does have PDFs, but those interactive tools don't count as forward.

Your argument is self-contradictory! No company in the industry has iPad apps.

Nor is that forward thinking; no one has iPads!

Seriously, you're selling GAMES here, not futuristic apps that revolutionize the business world, or that save companies money. You're asking a company to -spend money- to develop software (and they aren't even a software company, damn it) for a platform that has a market penetration of 'sweet all.'

Seriously, you seem to think D&D's target demographic is the hip technology loving iPad swinging Steve Jobs worshiping crowd. And calling the use of such expensive technology the way of the future, and Wizards needs to be on it.

Dude. Seriously. PDFs are not the wave of the future for a larger company in the business of making money. And accusing the only company that gives non-PDF digital offerings of not giving digital offerings enough is so irrational that it's worth commenting on.

When Atlas, White Wolf, Paizo, Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight, or any other gaming company in this business offers something online, free or for pay, other than a blog and a forum, then (and only then) can rational talk occur about WoTC not being 'the wave of the future.'

However, as it stands, the facts are clear: The only company doing digital to any reasonable degree -other than pdfs- is Wizards. All other companies are not. They're the big kids in the yard. They're making money doing so, and they have every right to.

Don't blame -Wizards- because the -consumers- decided to pirate rather than buy. Don't blame -Wizards- because the -consumers- don't support a product line enough for Wizards to support it. Don't blame -Wizards- because they're not jumping into the foray again, into a climate of piracy and theft that is EXACTLY THE SAME AS ONE YEAR AGO.

That's not -Wizard's- fault. That's the -consumers'-. Wizards is making business decisions based on what the consumers have decided. Not on what one kid on a forum has decided they'd prefer.

Bitching about having no Game Table yet? Sure, I can stand behind that. You might have an argument there.

But honestly? PDFs are bad for business. OGL is now bad for business. That's the reason they're not done any more. And no business does things that are bad for business.

 

[rjdafoe]

But honestly? PDFs are bad for business. OGL is now bad for business. That's the reason they're not done any more. And no business does things that are bad for business.

I don't blame consumers. If the products where not selling well, I can understand not creating NEW products. Pulling a product from the market is never a consumer decision, it is always a business decision (or a legal decision is some areas).

Let just agree to disagree. We just don't have the same view. You would rather keep a business doing what it is doing and protect how things have always been done. I wouldn't and think that expanding the business is better.

You would rather protect your IP and punish legitimate users of what you were once doing. I would rather serve that market, protect that IP by tracking down abusers (as they have done).

It is just 2 different viewpoints on how to do business.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Let just agree to disagree. We just don't have the same view. You would rather keep a business doing what it is doing and protect how things have always been done. I wouldn't and think that expanding the business is better.

He never said he wants to preserve the current state or the past state. And I believe he would do what yields the most profit - whatever that is.

You would rather protect your IP and punish legitimate users of what you were once doing.

And who gets punished and how? If you talk about people that bought PDFs - they were not punished. Nobody took their purchased PDFs away. They can't get more. But that's not the same.

 

[CovertOps]

I don't blame consumers. If the products where not selling well, I can understand not creating NEW products. Pulling a product from the market is never a consumer decision, it is always a business decision (or a legal decision is some areas).

Let just agree to disagree. We just don't have the same view. You would rather keep a business doing what it is doing and protect how things have always been done. I wouldn't and think that expanding the business is better.

You would rather protect your IP and punish legitimate users of what you were once doing. I would rather serve that market, protect that IP by tracking down abusers (as they have done).

It is just 2 different viewpoints on how to do business.

The problem here is that (and this applies to both sides) we are debating what someone else should do with THEIR money. I support Wizards' choice to do whatever they want with THEIR money and you don't. They chose to stop offering a product. I have to assume that because businesses like making money that it is somehow no longer profitable for them to offer said product. You seem to think you're smarter than them and without any data whatsoever are claiming "they screwed up". This is a simple case of Occum's Razor. Barring any proof the simplest answer is most likely to be correct. In this case the simple answer is they stopped making money.

 

[rjdafoe]

He never said he wants to preserve the current state or the past state. And I believe he would do what yields the most profit - whatever that is.

And who gets punished and how? If you talk about people that bought PDFs - they were not punished. Nobody took their purchased PDFs away. They can't get more. But that's not the same.

Yes, he did. He talked about preserving gaming stores and sales of physical books.

Maybe punished isn't the word - anyway- they are lumped in the same bucket as pirates and they as consumers chose that even though they really chose to support the product.

Also, they cannot re-download their PDF if it happens to get screwed up (as some services allow) or lost, and they cannot re-download the PDF with the rule changes incorporated. (I don't know if Wizards did this or not, but I know that some publishers do).

Second off, their preferred product is no longer available. They have to go to a non-preferred product, or don't buy.

 

[rjdafoe]

The problem here is that (and this applies to both sides) we are debating what someone else should do with THEIR money. I support Wizards' choice to do whatever they want with THEIR money and you don't. They chose to stop offering a product. I have to assume that because businesses like making money that it is somehow no longer profitable for them to offer said product. You seem to think you're smarter than them and without any data whatsoever are claiming "they screwed up". This is a simple case of Occum's Razor. Barring any proof the simplest answer is most likely to be correct. In this case the simple answer is they stopped making money.

I suggest you read it again and please stop inferring that I think I am better or smarter than other people. I have not and do not appreciate the inference that I have.

And, with that, I think my part of the conversation in this thread has run it's course.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Yes, he did. He talked about preserving gaming stores and sales of physical books.

Maybe punished isn't the word - anyway- they are lumped in the same bucket as pirates and they as consumers chose that even though they really chose to support the product.

Also, they cannot re-download their PDF if it happens to get screwed up (as some services allow) or lost, and they cannot re-download the PDF with the rule changes incorporated. (I don't know if Wizards did this or not, but I know that some publishers do).

Second off, their preferred product is no longer available. They have to go to a non-preferred product, or don't buy.

Let me expound on the preserve issue:
Preserve the current state: preserve shops and no PDFs
vs.
Preserve Shops: preserve shops nothing said about PDFs.
Important distinction b/c the second one allows for PDFs in the future if they seem profitable.

And those who got the PDFs are out of support which happens all the time in business. Try to get some spare parts from the manufacturer of a cheap electronic device - there are usually none. I don't say that it is good that support for a product is lacking but WotC isn't the only one that stopped supporting something.