WotC should make an online SRD....

[rjdafoe]

When you go to a friends, do you look at the books on their shelves? I do.
Do you look through their hard drives for any files that might be interesting? I don't.

I could get my PDF of the PHB up on my computer.

If I decide to show it to them
And I wasn't using my computer for something else


My friend can pick up my copy of the PHB off the shelf.
Even if I don't think about showing it them
Even if I'm reading other books, or on my computer.

It's a big difference.

And if DDI makes the books irrelevant, then digital books (being available only when on a computer, which could therefore just use DDI) are doubly irrelevant.

Devices like the iPad solve that problem.

You do not get the art or the fluff. As I said before, tying it to DDI and charging $10 to $15 a book would be acceptable for most people I think.

If you can't look at the PDF or other digital offering on the computer, you certainly cannot flip through it with DDI.

 

[Kingreaper]

Devices like the iPad solve that problem.

<sarcasm>Really? Books that people have on their iPad sit on their shelves?

They can be grabbed and flipped through?

And all the people who'd buy the PDF would have an iPad right? Because everyone I know has an iPad, no-one would be seen without one, that'd be SILLY</sarcasm>

Seriously, books sit on shelves. In doing so, they provide advertisement, both in stores and in peoples homes.
What is so hard to grasp about that concept?

You do not get the art or the fluff.

So, in fact, DDI doesn't supply what the books would, and you were incorrect.

If you can't look at the PDF or other digital offering on the computer, you certainly cannot flip through it with DDI.

No, but you can flip through it in book form, off your friends shelf.


Do you understand the point I am making? Do I need to repeat it again for you?

Books in digital format do not sit on shelves. They do not support shops on city streets. They in NO WAY help to increase knowledge of WotC and D&D.

Books in physical format sit on shelves, they support gaming stores on city streets. They promote knowledge of D&D while simultaneously promoting gaming spaces for Magic Card Tournaments, and activities like D&D Encounters.

Why do you think WotC instituted the "early release policy" for stores that do those things?
Those things are important to them. Advertising is important to them. A PDF on your iPad doesn't advertise anything other than that you bought an iPad.
Which, admittedly, is fairly remarkable, given as I've never seen anyone with one.

 

[rjdafoe]

<sarcasm>Really? Books that people have on their iPad sit on their shelves?

They can be grabbed and flipped through?

And all the people who'd buy the PDF would have an iPad right? Because everyone I know has an iPad, no-one would be seen without one, that'd be SILLY</sarcasm>

Seriously, books sit on shelves. In doing so, they provide advertisement, both in stores and in peoples homes.
What is so hard to grasp about that concept?

So, in fact, DDI doesn't supply what the books would, and you were incorrect.


No, but you can flip through it in book form, off your friends shelf.


Do you understand the point I am making? Do I need to repeat it again for you?

Books in digital format do not sit on shelves. They do not support shops on city streets. They in NO WAY help to increase knowledge of WotC and D&D.

Books in physical format sit on shelves, they support gaming stores on city streets. They promote knowledge of D&D while simultaneously promoting gaming spaces for Magic Card Tournaments, and activities like D&D Encounters.

Why do you think WotC instituted the "early release policy" for stores that do those things?
Those things are important to them. Advertising is important to them. A PDF on your iPad doesn't advertise anything other than that you bought an iPad.
Which, admittedly, is fairly remarkable, given as I've never seen anyone with one.

I used iPad as an example, as that is the device that everyone seems to know. (and yes, you can flip though PDFs or other digital media on an iPad - it is similiar to reading a magazine, only a heavier - and no, I do not own one, but there are 4 people in my 2 groups that do)

You completely missed the point. I understand what your saying. Somehow I do not think you understand what I am saying or you do not understand digital media.

Amazon does not do any of the local game store things you listed, but they sold a ton of books.

Yes, I understand there are business issues around it. I am saying that they have to address it at some point.

But you know what? You are completely right. All of you. Digital media is a dead end, like the internet or text messaging on a cell phone before it, it is just a fad. Nobody wants a device that would support digital media, in fact, just ask Amazon, or Apple with their iPads and iBooks store that was recently opened.

All are complete failures.

 

[Crazy_Dragon]

Books are not dead and they will probably last another 30+ as mainstream, but people are generally moving towards newer technology, the horse didn't immediately get replaced, in the US horses were still used in the 1930s, Wizards will have to adapt to technology and for the most part they have, so hopefully by 4.5E we will be back to PDFs

 

[DracoSuave]

"We're not telling anyone what game to play. We are telling the market that we're going to actively encourage our players to stand up and demand that they be listened to, and that they become the center of the gaming industry - rather than the current publisher-centric model. Through the RPGA, the Open Gaming movement, the pages of Dragon Magazine, and all other venues available, we want to empower our customers to do what >they< want, to force us and our competitors to bend to >their< will, to make the products >they< want made"

And in this instance, that's -exactly- what happened.

Except, the customers made the decision to steal rather than to buy. The customers, in stealing considerably more than they bought, they placed their vote that the majority want free PDFs, do not want to pay for it, and are not concerned about the legality or moral issues.

And so, that is exactly what you have. PDFs -are- available, because the demand is there. And, because the majority of customers stole them rather than buy, the stolen copies won out in the marketplace.

So the question then is... how are things different that Wizards can successfully reenter this market of digital offerings (I notice you don't count DDI as a digital offering, which is someone misleading. It IS one) and be able to compete with what is currently that markets' leader?

That is the question that needs answered. Accusations of being 'bad at business' or 'jumping the gun' are fine, but I've noticed that question still has been ignored. And ignoring -that- question shows a lack of understanding of business necessary to even justify a baseline judgement of Wizards' PDF policies.

 

[Kingreaper]

I used iPad as an example, as that is the device that everyone seems to know. (and yes, you can flip though PDFs or other digital media on an iPad - it is similiar to reading a magazine, only a heavier - and no, I do not own one, but there are 4 people in my 2 groups that do)

The point is, you can't just pick it up off a mates shelf.

And that most people DON'T have these devices YET.
(especially not the kids 20 and under that you say "demand digital".)

You seem to be saying WotC should be releasing PDFs now, because PDFs are the future?
But, to be simple, WotC can wait for the future, and release PDFs when PDFs are the present.

Amazon does not do any of the local game store things you listed, but they sold a ton of books.

Actually, Amazon helps with the advertising somewhat, through it's recommendations. But yes, it's not as good as local gamestores. Hence why it's not allowed to sell books until significantly later than local gamestores.

Yes, I understand there are business issues around it. I am saying that they have to address it at some point.

At some point =/=now.

WotC can wait until it becomes worthwhile, THEN do it.

They don't need to have it ready for the future. If, in five years, PDFs become worthwhile for them, they can release the PDFs THEN.

 

[rjdafoe]

And in this instance, that's -exactly- what happened.

Except, the customers made the decision to steal rather than to buy. The customers, in stealing considerably more than they bought, they placed their vote that the majority want free PDFs, do not want to pay for it, and are not concerned about the legality or moral issues.

And so, that is exactly what you have. PDFs -are- available, because the demand is there. And, because the majority of customers stole them rather than buy, the stolen copies won out in the marketplace.

So the question then is... how are things different that Wizards can successfully reenter this market of digital offerings (I notice you don't count DDI as a digital offering, which is someone misleading. It IS one) and be able to compete with what is currently that markets' leader?

That is the question that needs answered. Accusations of being 'bad at business' or 'jumping the gun' are fine, but I've noticed that question still has been ignored. And ignoring -that- question shows a lack of understanding of business necessary to even justify a baseline judgement of Wizards' PDF policies.

Sorry, I don't buy that. Where there problems with PDFs? Sure, the same exact problem occur without the PDFs, only now Wizards has a harder time finding out who owned those PDFs.

I think there are some people that would agree with me that this has nothing to do with how much they made selling PDFs and more to do with the lawsuits against those PDF buyers that were announced. Reall, the only thing we have to go on is what was publicly announced and what they did. For me, there is a stronger argument for that vs some speculation that they did not make enough money. Go back and take a look at all of Wizards actions since 4E and you start to see a pattern. I don't agree with these practices. Wether Wizards can be compared to Paizo or not, I don't know. But you can certainly take the D&D part of the company and compare them to Paizo. In my view, Paizo has alot more of the community behind them then Wizards. (and BTW, I am not a Paizo customer or fan).

DDI is not a digital offering for the books. They are a set of tools to use.

 

[DracoSuave]

Sorry, I don't buy that. Where there problems with PDFs? Sure, the same exact problem occur without the PDFs, only now Wizards has a harder time finding out who owned those PDFs.

I don't think you understand... Wizard's job is not to find out who own pdfs that were stolen. Their job is to sell entertainment for a profit.

I think there are some people that would agree with me that this has nothing to do with how much they made selling PDFs and more to do with the lawsuits against those PDF buyers that were announced.

I don't deny the two aren't connected. I think however, you're not thinking of the bigger picture:

Reall, the only thing we have to go on is what was publicly announced and what they did. For me, there is a stronger argument for that vs some speculation that they did not make enough money.

When a business does something and then stops doing it, there's no stronger argument than 'it somehow jeopardized their bottom line.' Businesses exist to do profit, not to punish those that break their IPs.

Go back and take a look at all of Wizards actions since 4E and you start to see a pattern. I don't agree with these practices.

I'm certain you don't find their business practices to your liking. That's not a 'pattern.' That's just your subjective impression of a company that's doing something as evil as.... not sell a product you'd desire.

Wether Wizards can be compared to Paizo or not, I don't know. But you can certainly take the D&D part of the company and compare them to Paizo. In my view, Paizo has alot more of the community behind them then Wizards. (and BTW, I am not a Paizo customer or fan).

I'd be interested in where this view comes from. If it's from perusing 3.5 boards or 4.0sux boards, then I can see this view point being rational. If it's from observing sales figures and what the community outside of such niche markets says... I don't see it.

And never forget, Paizo is selling D&D 3.5.5, not their own uniquely crafted product they developed on their own. You can't call someone the industry leader when their entire product line consists of using the work developed by the actual industry leader, with their permission.

DDI is not a digital offering for the books. They are a set of tools to use.

I don't disagree with this statement.

But as a set of tools, Wizards is the ONLY company that offers them.

Again, I heard 'they need offer pdfs they are the future' while disregarding the simple fact that Wizards is the only company that incorporates online offerings in a way that is valuable, and compliments the printed books more than simply putting out pdfs ever could.

 

[rjdafoe]

The point is, you can't just pick it up off a mates shelf.

And that most people DON'T have these devices YET.
(especially not the kids 20 and under that you say "demand digital".)

You seem to be saying WotC should be releasing PDFs now, because PDFs are the future?
But, to be simple, WotC can wait for the future, and release PDFs when PDFs are the present.
Actually, Amazon helps with the advertising somewhat, through it's recommendations. But yes, it's not as good as local gamestores. Hence why it's not allowed to sell books until significantly later than local gamestores.

At some point =/=now.

WotC can wait until it becomes worthwhile, THEN do it.

They don't need to have it ready for the future. If, in five years, PDFs become worthwhile for them, they can release the PDFs THEN.

They had them and then pulled them. That is a big difference. They were in the market. There may have been issues (for instance a lot of people complained about the price of the PDF). It was worthwhile at some point. What happened? All we can do is look at what we know happened.

But do a search and look at the timeline. Look at Wizards actions and attitudes towards 3PP and how they have changed. Look at the (now old) PDF thread. The thing is, they do not have to be PDFs at all.

DDI (right now) is not it either. They are tools only, not really a way to view the book. You can't "flip" through it. You can't really even "read" it.

 

[rjdafoe]

I don't think you understand... Wizard's job is not to find out who own pdfs that were stolen. Their job is to sell entertainment for a profit.

If they want to protect their IP, it is

When a business does something and then stops doing it, there's no stronger argument than 'it somehow jeopardized their bottom line.' Businesses exist to do profit, not to punish those that break their IPs.

Sure, the only argument that it effected their bottom line is of piracy. That is all. It is STILL effecting their bottom line.

I'd be interested in where this view comes from. If it's from perusing 3.5 boards or 4.0sux boards, then I can see this view point being rational. If it's from observing sales figures and what the community outside of such niche markets says... I don't see it.

I play 4E exclusively. I don't bother to read the anti-4e boards or the 3.5 boards. But I do know that 4e suffers because of a lack of support from 3PPs. Paizo seems to me to be gaining traction. Just read the general forums here sometime. The general attitude (on the internet, as that is all that can be gauged online) is one that favors Paizo as a company vs Wizards. Could that be 4E hate? I suppose. Or it could be that Paizo is doing something better than or something that Wizards is not offering. In my view, Paizo has a better online rep than Wizards - for whatever reason.

But as a set of tools, Wizards is the ONLY company that offers them.

I agree. I am not arguing about the tools. They are the best tools I have used for any game (except for customization - but that is another thread).

The only thing I think is that there should be a digital offering of the books - especially the essentials line that is coming out. What better way to bring new people into the game than to sell into new avenues? The new Apple book store or the Amazon Kindle? As well as have the books in the book stores?