WotC should make an online SRD....

[DracoSuave]

I am sure that WotC did not do one either.

You are aware that is absolutely NOT how the company has ever operated in the past?

One of the first things they did when they looked at buying TSR was what their market research was.

Keeping in touch with the market is one of the things that's made them a very successful business in the past... do you think they suddenly stopped doing what works for them as a company?

This isn't even a cogent argument; it'd be irrational to assume they haven't done the market research, especially given the amount of customer input that has obviously gone into the brand's evolution. You want proof they're in touch with their customers? The product reacts to stuff that happens on -THIS- board.

Wizards has made mistakes, but 'didn't do the research' has never been one of them. There's no evidence that they've suddenly stopped either. It is simply irrational to assume otherwise.

I am sorry you feel so strongly that a segment of the market should go unserved by the major player in the gaming market. Unfortunately for those of us that like technology, WotC tends to agree with you.

Here's the crux of the matter.

It's not that it is felt that this market should go unserved. Far from it, it'd be great if that avenue could be opened. Ideally, that would be a wonderful thing.

However, realism requires a bit more than 'it'd be cool!' The argument isn't that it isn't wanted, or that this market should go unserved. The argument is that doing so is not viable for Wizards at this time.

There are many possible reasons for it, but one big one is, and always has been, that this same demographic you indicate is also the demographic most likely to simply steal it for free if it is available. That's a realistic statement, and it is one those who are in charge of such things must consider when offering digital wares.

The other big one is that Wizards, as a company, lives or dies by the brick and mortars. I know some companies can get by on PDFs, but Wizards is not just a creator of some niche RPG products. They sell the biggest RPG in the world, the biggest collectible card game in the world, and have a sizable adult strategy board game section. They -need- the brick and mortar companies to sell their products, because that is where most of their revenue comes from.

A lot of the 'They can do it' arguments are about comparing them to either one's own desires, or small companies with small product lines, do not consider the future of the business's growth, do not consider that Wizards does a little bit more than print D&D books, and generally chalk it all down to accusing them of 'not being in touch with their market.'

It's idealism, and it's not founded on the big picture.

 

[rjdafoe]

You are aware that is absolutely NOT how the company has ever operated in the past?

Then kindly point me in the direction of proof of where that was.

Face it, pulling all the PDFs was nothing other than a knee jerk reaction to protecting their IP.

Having DDI and then not having books in some way digital is a failing on their part, whatever the reason.

 

[DracoSuave]

Then kindly point me in the direction of proof of where that was.

Ryan Dancey on the Acquisition of TSR

Now one could put forth that 'Do the research' is only Ryan Dancey's thing, but I'd put forth that it is a product of the entire company's culture. Not to mention, their parent company, Hasbro, is themselves huge on the market research.

You don't need to do much research to figure out that Wizards likes their market research. Hell, they invented entire ways of catagorizing players that have evolved beyond simply 'Who do I make this card for?'

The fact is, PDFs didn't work. You can claim it is a kneejerk reaction, but really, what do you know about the situation other than 'They stopped making them?'

The situation is, and always was, more complex than 'GIMME WANT PRODUCT!' and nothings changed now to make it different from a year ago. Instead of claiming 'I HAS NO PDFS SO THEY SUCK' which is nothing more than sour grapes, why not instead discuss alternatives to acquiring this content so that customers can access it, in ways that do not jeopardize their paper sales.

Oh yes, of course, you don't care, you just want your pdfs.

That's why you're not an expert on the market research, because your 'research' consists solely of 'I want it' and not 'So how do I make this -work.-'

 

[Crazy_Dragon]

I play D&D 4e at school during lunch, my laptop is loaded with the pdfs, because honestly 20 books weighs a bit and is impractical to bring to school every day, on the other hand the weight of 20 pdfs is non-existant.

When I save up enough money I buy a book, unfortunately as a child I lack a job, when I get a job I will definitely buy more, but for now I must rely on pdfs,

I have bought hard copies because you can't go and sit in bright sunlight and read a pdf, but for books that is glorious weather

 

[rjdafoe]

Ryan Dancey on the Acquisition of TSR

Now one could put forth that 'Do the research' is only Ryan Dancey's thing, but I'd put forth that it is a product of the entire company's culture. Not to mention, their parent company, Hasbro, is themselves huge on the market research.

You don't need to do much research to figure out that Wizards likes their market research. Hell, they invented entire ways of catagorizing players that have evolved beyond simply 'Who do I make this card for?'

The fact is, PDFs didn't work. You can claim it is a kneejerk reaction, but really, what do you know about the situation other than 'They stopped making them?'

The situation is, and always was, more complex than 'GIMME WANT PRODUCT!' and nothings changed now to make it different from a year ago. Instead of claiming 'I HAS NO PDFS SO THEY SUCK' which is nothing more than sour grapes, why not instead discuss alternatives to acquiring this content so that customers can access it, in ways that do not jeopardize their paper sales.

Oh yes, of course, you don't care, you just want your pdfs.

That's why you're not an expert on the market research, because your 'research' consists solely of 'I want it' and not 'So how do I make this -work.-'

First off, that is not what I meant. Show me a survey or anything where WotC asked people if they wanted PDF sales. Honestly, if anyone answered that survey that PDF sales would cause them to not buy the game, I would like to see it.

Secondly, thank you for knowing what who I am, and attributing me to a group of people that I am not associated with. I have not bought a PDF from Wizards at all. But, obviously, you know what I do, what I believe better than I do.

Honestly, I do not know why you are defending them so much on this issue. They are not infallable and they are fully capable of making a mistake. All of their actions since 4E has been out is first and foremost defending their IP at all costs. For good or bad. It doesn't matter.

If you had read any of my posts, you would have noted I don't care that there are PDFs. The only thing I have said that they are doing wrong is no digital offereings at all. I even said to ty it to DDI somehow.

That does not mean that I am mad at them for pulling the PDFs, as you are attributing to me. I have seen a decision that I do not agree with, and I said something. That doesn't mean I hate WotC or am boycotting their products. It means that I just dohn't agree with their decision. I am not trying to make anything up about sales that I do not have any information of or trying to speculate why I think it is a good marketing decision. I am not advocating that they should stop selling books.

It is almost that you think that the people who like PDFS or digital offerings is somehow making your enjoyment less. I don't think that. I see what I believe is going to be the future and think that not having the books digital is a bad decesion, made worse by them having things digital and pulling them because - shocker! - they were found on the internet.

You also seemed to miss this part of the link that you gave me:

"We're not telling anyone what game to play. We are telling the market that we're going to actively encourage our players to stand up and demand that they be listened to, and that they become the center of the gaming industry - rather than the current publisher-centric model. Through the RPGA, the Open Gaming movement, the pages of Dragon Magazine, and all other venues available, we want to empower our customers to do what >they< want, to force us and our competitors to bend to >their< will, to make the products >they< want made"

 

[Kingreaper]

First off, that is not what I meant. Show me a survey or anything where WotC asked people if they wanted PDF sales. Honestly, if anyone answered that survey that PDF sales would cause them to not buy the game, I would like to see it.

You're clearly completely missing the point. It's not that people would look at the game, go "this is being sold as PDF elsewhere, I won't buy it"
It's that selling the game as a PDF decreases the chances of people seeing it in the first place.

If I buy a hardcopy, the store I bought it from is encouraged to stock hardcopies. +1 to advertising for WotC

If I buy a hardcopy, anyone who comes to my house may see the hardcopy, and browse it. +1 to advertising for WotC.

If I buy a PDF instead of a hardcopy... WotC and the D&D brand don't get those advertising boosts.

If you're thinking that their decision was based on people not buying the PDF, you're being marvellously obtuse.
The PDF would sell. Not amazingly well, but it'd sell.
And a lot of those sales would cost them a book sale, in a way that DDI doesn't.

The book sales are more valuable to them (NOT because of the revenue directly gained, the same would be got from a PDF sale) because of the advertising generated.

 

[CovertOps]

We will agree to disagree then. I do not have to do surveys, I have seen the envirnment change at the local colleges and gaming stores.

Translation: You're not allowed to disagree with my opinion...I mean "facts". /sarcasm

I am sure that WotC did not do one either.

Again your opinion.

There are plenty of companies that went by the wayside when they did not keep ahead of the curve. Others stayed behind the curve, did business as usual and had to be saved by the government.

I'm not aware of any GAME companies that have been saved by the government and I don't sense WotC/Hasbro going under any time soon. Other than that I'm not sure what your point here is.

I am sorry you feel so strongly that a segment of the market should go unserved by the major player in the gaming market. Unfortunately for those of us that like technology, WotC tends to agree with you.

I have never disagreed with your premise (It would be nice if we could get a digital format of books from WotC without them being illegal). What I have disagreed with is the idea that WotC should provide a product even if providing said product would cause the company to lose money.

Face it, pulling all the PDFs was nothing other than a knee jerk reaction to protecting their IP.

More opinion. And really this opinion forms the basis of all your other positions.

Having DDI and then not having books in some way digital is a failing on their part, whatever the reason.

Yes. They failed to find a way to profit from a digital offering, so they stopped offering it.

First off, that is not what I meant. Show me a survey or anything where WotC asked people if they wanted PDF sales.

Irrelevant.

Honestly, I do not know why you are defending them so much on this issue. They are not infallible and they are fully capable of making a mistake. All of their actions since 4E has been out is first and foremost defending their IP at all costs. For good or bad. It doesn't matter.

So defending their IP is bad?

If you had read any of my posts, you would have noted I don't care that there are PDFs. The only thing I have said that they are doing wrong is no digital offereings at all. I even said to ty it to DDI somehow.

You're assuming that a digital offering would be profitable.

Summary:
I can't speak for DS, but he can feel free to agree or disagree with what I'm about to say. The only useful thing you've said is that you disagree with their decision to not have a digital offering. You come here and make ridiculous claims based on your opinion and present them as fact, then, expect us to disprove said "facts". And when we put your feet to the fire you rephrase your "facts". Until and unless you can prove that WotC stopped selling PDFs because of a "kneejerk reaction" you have no case. And just so I'm clear...the only way you can prove said claim is if a WotC official comes out with a statement saying so.


@DS: When I saw this I immediately thought of this, but then again I expect that's why you posted it that way.
Step 1: Make PDFs.
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: PROFIT!

 

[rjdafoe]

You're clearly completely missing the point. It's not that people would look at the game, go "this is being sold as PDF elsewhere, I won't buy it"
It's that selling the game as a PDF decreases the chances of people seeing it in the first place.

If I buy a hardcopy, the store I bought it from is encouraged to stock hardcopies. +1 to advertising for WotC

If I buy a hardcopy, anyone who comes to my house may see the hardcopy, and browse it. +1 to advertising for WotC.

If I buy a PDF instead of a hardcopy... WotC and the D&D brand don't get those advertising boosts.

If you're thinking that their decision was based on people not buying the PDF, you're being marvellously obtuse.
The PDF would sell. Not amazingly well, but it'd sell.
And a lot of those sales would cost them a book sale, in a way that DDI doesn't.

The book sales are more valuable to them (NOT because of the revenue directly gained, the same would be got from a PDF sale) because of the advertising generated.

I don't agree. The digital offering can be shown to people just as easily. With all the fancy art and everything. I believe that they lose more book sales from people subscribing to DDI and therefore not having to buy books.

 

[rjdafoe]

Translation: You're not allowed to disagree with my opinion...I mean "facts". /sarcasm

Wrong you are assuming that they cannot make money and completely disregarding that the PDFs where pulled at about the time of the lawsuit.

I'm not aware of any GAME companies that have been saved by the government and I don't sense WotC/Hasbro going under any time soon. Other than that I'm not sure what your point here is.

I did not say game companies. I said companies that did not change with the market.

I have never disagreed with your premise (It would be nice if we could get a digital format of books from WotC without them being illegal). What I have disagreed with is the idea that WotC should provide a product even if providing said product would cause the company to lose money.

We agree then. Your assumption that they didn't or couldn't is just as valid as my assumption that it was to protect their IP and had no bearing on sales at all.

Yes. They failed to find a way to profit from a digital offering, so they stopped offering it.

assumption

So defending their IP is bad?

re-read whhat I said. I said for good or bad, I did not make assume it was bad - you just assumed I did.

You're assuming that a digital offering would be profitable.

No I am not

Summary:
I can't speak for DS, but he can feel free to agree or disagree with what I'm about to say. The only useful thing you've said is that you disagree with their decision to not have a digital offering. You come here and make ridiculous claims based on your opinion and present them as fact, then, expect us to disprove said "facts". And when we put your feet to the fire you rephrase your "facts". Until and unless you can prove that WotC stopped selling PDFs because of a "kneejerk reaction" you have no case. And just so I'm clear...the only way you can prove said claim is if a WotC official comes out with a statement saying so.

I could say the same. You have no case that they did not make a profit. I at least have a series of events that happened.

Do I really have to have my signature say that everything I type is my opinion and are not to be taken as gospel? No where did I say that anything is fact, please re-read it. I have said my experience with my environment.

 

[Kingreaper]

I don't agree. The digital offering can be shown to people just as easily. With all the fancy art and everything. I believe that they lose more book sales from people subscribing to DDI and therefore not having to buy books.

When you go to a friends, do you look at the books on their shelves? I do.
Do you look through their hard drives for any files that might be interesting? I don't.

I could get my PDF of the PHB up on my computer.

If I decide to show it to them
And I wasn't using my computer for something else


My friend can pick up my copy of the PHB off the shelf.
Even if I don't think about showing it them
Even if I'm reading other books, or on my computer.

It's a big difference.

And if DDI makes the books irrelevant, then digital books (being available only when on a computer, which could therefore just use DDI) are doubly irrelevant.