WotC, why don't you just admit it already?

[Ruin Explorer]

I dunno, I like Razz, he puts the other anti-4E whinging in perspective, by so much further!

Annoyedwith4E - 4E killed my cat and stole my PHB!

Razz - 4E killed my entire family, burned down my house, stole my life's savings, and is sacrificing me to Satan RIGHT NOW!

Also, also, also, for me, as someone who was around here for the 2E to 3E change, there is a simply delicious irony about someone whose avatar is the 3E symbol being extremely upset about an edition change!

 

[shilsen]

I dunno, I like Razz, he puts the other anti-4E whinging in perspective, by so much further!

Annoyedwith4E - 4E killed my cat and stole my PHB!

Razz - 4E killed my entire family, burned down my house, stole my life's savings, and is sacrificing me to Satan RIGHT NOW!

Also, also, also, for me, as someone who was around here for the 2E to 3E change, there is a simply delicious irony about someone whose avatar is the 3E symbol being extremely upset about an edition change!

I just realized you're right. Reading Razz on D&D and WotC for months must have innoculated me to even the worst of the knee-jerk reactions and whining about 4e!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

It does seem to be remarkably different from 3e and 3.5e. Which they've been pretty aboveboard about, actually.

It's certainly better than trying to patch things over with duct tape and staples.

And I've never gotten the idea that "What sells" is all that different from "What's good for the game."

Brad

 

[Mallus]

I just realized you're right. Reading Razz on D&D and WotC for months must have innoculated me to even the worst of the knee-jerk reactions and whining about 4e!

So he's a public dis-service!

I kill me...

 

[Gundark]

....razz....I'm starting to kick myself for even hanging out here...at least it's better here than over at the WotC boards.

 

[Thurbane]

They want to start D&D all over again from scratch.

While I don't agree with all of your synopsis, this underlying fact is, sadly, true.

From what I've seen so far, they have thrown the baby out with the bathwater - a huge chunk of what differentiates D&D from other FRPGs seems to have been dumped.

The reasons seem to be twofold:

1.) Forcing people to start from scratch means more book sales to existing fans.

2.) The complete reboot also seems to be an attempt to grab a new generation of D&Ders.

Now, in essence, there is nothing quintessentially wrong with either of these motives - WotC are a business, and need to act like one, but I can't help but feel they are marginalising long standing fans in the way they are changing the crunch and flavor of 4E. I certainly feel no real entusiasm towards it.

 

[Mercule]

Wait... He's not kidding?

Huh. I didn't think anyone could be so.... nah, I don't want banned.

 

[Mouseferatu]

but I can't help but feel they are marginalising long standing fans in the way they are changing the crunch and flavor of 4E. I certainly feel no real entusiasm towards it.

Thing is, Thurbane, those two statements don't equate to each other. It's true that you, and some other long-standing fans, don't like what they've heard of 4E. That's certainly your prerogative, and I don't begrudge you your opinions. But it's an inaccurate generalization to say that they're "marginalizing long-standing fans," because a lot of long-standing fans very much do like what they've heard. (I, for one, have been playing since I was 9 years old, and started with the Erol Otis Red Box, and I like over 90% of what I've heard about 4E.)

 

[Mercule]

(I, for one, have been playing since I was 9 years old, and started with the Erol Otis Red Box, and I like over 90% of what I've heard about 4E.)

Um... yeah. What he said -- except I was 10.

Edit: Okay, I badger a few points about 4E, but that's to be expected with a passionate hobby. I'm still very enthused.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

It does feel to me more like an entirely new game rather than a revision of D&D.

Take these three things we've heard:
1) Alignment will have few or no mechanical effects
2) Wizards will never entirely run out of spells and should never need to resort to a mundane weapon
3) PCs will be FAR superior to commoners, town guardsmen, and rank-and-file enemies from the beginning, with triple maximum HP.

It seems to me that the fundamental changes from 3E to 4E are at least as great as those from D&D to another system (such as Rolemaster). So I don't think it's a stretch to say "4E is a brand new game.

3E was such a dramatic change from 2E that it was pretty close to being a brand new game... 4E might be even more of a change... but I understand that if you have the rights to the D&D name, you're going to slap it on whatever product you churn out. Even if your new game bears little resemblance to what came before.