Would i be a RBDM to use the Remorhaz "intelligently"?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Quotes because I think this is legal.

I've long had to wonder how the heck the Remorhaz is CR 7, even played dumb and just attacking mindlessly. I've avoided using it, and never at level 7, but in this game, the party is high powered gestalt and level 8...maybe I can take off the kiddie gloves.

I was reading the description and aside from the insane fire damage, two things stuck out to me: swallow hole + burrow speed. Seems to me like the creature's natural instinct would be to swallow one unlucky person, then burrow underground until he's digested. Or just leave if that was enouh of a meal. Doing that seems inherently...rat bastardy, though...

Am I right in assuming this combo "works"?
If someone clawed their way out only to find themselves 20-50 ft underground...what happens?
I've always liked the idea of burrowing enemies doing hit and run attacks, any advice specific to the remorhaz to make it fun and less deadly?

Finally, it is rotating DM, and while i'm the main DM, I still have a PC that I run during my sessions. He's a cleric and the only healer in the group, so thus far, it's been easy to put him in a support role and not hog the spotlight. But in this instance, the remorhaz becomes a LOT less deadly w/ mass energy resist prepared. The characters should have no idea of expecting this thing, so he probably shouldn't prepare it. But then i wonder if they'll think I "hijacked" my spells prepared list to make the fight artifically difficult. They're normally pretty laid back, it's probably not a big deal, still a worry for me though. Also, mass resist energy is SO good, a case could be made of "why wouldn't you prepare it every day?" Hmm....


EDIT: Since the view of what is and isn't a RBDM varies widely, my personal stances include:
1. The Bodak should never be used in any game.
2. Generally enemies should not place precedence in attacking a character who's dying but not dead.
3. Sundering as it currently exists is patently unfair to use against the PCs.

 

[krupintupple]

a dog or ape - both fairly smart creatures - both have intelligences of 2, whereas a rhemoraz has an intelligence of 5, so it's no mere animal. however, i agree with you that if it were to use said tactics, it may be considered cheap or unfair to your players. to be honest, they would be correct. noone wants to return to the 1e Gygaxian days of "Welp...you just died, no save. Wanna make a Thief-Acrobat?".

what i'd do is have it use intelligent tactics, but also react intelligently. it's not going to sit in one location while the entire group hammers away at it. if you check out its stats, merely being brushed by it is far worse than its bite - it probably knows this. it would probably burrow up beside someone and then attempt to grapple and char them, or swallow them whole. if it felt big resistence - like getting hit for over 15 damage from a single attack, it would back off and tunnel away, and maybe continue this one or two more times. once below 25% health, it'd probably tunnel away for good.

while a letdown, keep in mind the players could follow it once the tunnel it carved had cooled, and could then lead into another adventure, perhaps with more.

ultimately, in order to keep the battle safe and fair, let PCs make listen or knowledge checks the round before it surfaces, or make it go after stock animals like dogs or riding horses the first round or so, as it knows they won't be blasting it with all manner of strange arcane energies or sticking 5 feet of steel in its side.

 

[azhrei_fje]

EDIT: Since the view of what is and isn't a RBDM varies widely, my personal stances include:
1. The Bodak should never be used in any game.
2. Generally enemies should not place precedence in attacking a character who's dying but not dead.
3. Sundering as it currently exists is patently unfair to use against the PCs.

I've always played the monsters appropriate to their Int and/or Wis scores in my campaigns.

Every once in awhile when the party is up against a bad guy, I'll mumble something under my breath about, "oh hey, he could do such-and-such. No, wait, he's not smart enough for that. okay he'll just keep using full attack." My hope is that my players learn that some opponents are intelligent and others are not.

In a recent game, my enemy spellcaster was flying around a room and casting Will save spells against fighters and Fort spells against arcanists. But in almost every round, when it was the NPC's turn, I would ask the players what their PCs were wearing or what they looked like. If a PC was not wearing armor, they got a Fort save spell (usually), if they were wearing armor and didn't have any visible holy symbols, they got a Will save spell. And so on. The NPC made a couple of mistakes in the first round or two, but the players took it all in stride and were quite happy to have achieved success against an intelligent opponent.

So my advice? Don't hold back. A creature with a 20 Int should be played with a 20 Int. My players know that I'll do the same for them -- if the mage with a 20 Int doesn't notice something that I think they should, I'll tell them and say, "You'd notice such-and-such."

In any case, I like your list of things a RBDM might do. However, I don't have any hard-and-fast rules about such things. For example, I won't sunder PC equipment unless they try to sunder the BBEG's equipment. I won't use save-or-die spells on the PCs unless they use them on the BBEGs.

I did have a beholder who gained surprise on the party, though, and I had to hold back: the beast also rolled a 20 on its initiative after the surprise round and 20 eye rays while the party was flat-footed would've been a TPK.

 

[frankthedm]

I was reading the description and aside from the insane fire damage, two things stuck out to me: swallow hole + burrow speed. Seems to me like the creature's natural instinct would be to swallow one unlucky person, then burrow underground until he's digested. Or just leave if that was enough of a meal.

Yep. That is how anything with swallow whole should be played. Also they are kinda fragile for being huge, so eat and run sound like a good idea.

• Surprise
• Grab the largest meal
• Leave

A Huge remorhaz’s interior can hold 2 Large, 4 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller opponents.

So anyone think their players don't use enough pack animals as extra HP and warm bodies? I know it feels very unheroic, but monsters motivated by hunger won't mind a hobbled horse instead of heroic human. Other than for energy drainers, character levels don't add nutrition or flavor. Defeating the challenge of a remorhaz with two 75 GP riding horses sounds reasonable to me.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/187595-hireling-henchmen-extras-redshirts-3.html

But in this instance, the remorhaz becomes a LOT less deadly w/ mass energy resist prepared.

Most any energy using foe has the same issue. IMHO that spell is way too good for what it does to the economy of actions

 

[roguerouge]

I think it depends on whether the creature is a random encounter or if it's there for a purpose. If they're looking for it, then use it in this manner. They should be prepared and have thought of clever possible tactics. But if it's the requisite single wandering monster... well, I'd have it try to eat YOUR cleric in this manner, just so you don't get accused of favoritism.

Would you be okay with losing your cleric in this manner?

 

[akbearfoot]

IMO, fun trumps reality in D&D.


Swallow and run is something no PC will enjoy, and will probably think you are picking on them. Plus the obvious issues with what happens if they cut their way out while underground. You just turned an already powerful ability into a Save or die...Worse actually because it's a contested 'Overpower the 40ft monster with a huge grappling advantage or die'


Tremorsense only lets you detect creatures right?....If you swallow something and it cuts its way out underground and suffocates, then it's not a creature anymore and you can't see your food anymore. Sounds plausible at least.

I guess my train of thought is if your tactic REQUIRES the invention of house rules, it's probably not a good idea to spring on the PCs without a fair warning.

 

[pawsplay]

The DMG has rules about being underground when it describes Earth-aligned planes. The rule appears to be that you are in danger of suffocation, and you can dig your way out at 5 ft per turn. Hope you dig the right direction...

 

[Herzog]

Regarding the cleric's prepared spells:

Allow (one of) the players to select the spell list if you're really worried you are biased.

 

[Jlord]

A Huge remorhaz’s interior can hold 2 Large, 4 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller opponents.

Have some one or two get swallowed, and burrow, and watch as the fear sets in, then, from inside the remorhaz, place a npc with means of surviving in the bellie of the monster. it might be interesting to have an adventure based off of 1/2 the group trying to re-lure out the remorhaz to save their friends and the other half trying to escape from within. instead of a single npc, you could place a whole group or town living inside of the remorhaz if they are small enough.

just a thought.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What i'd do is have it use intelligent tactics, but also react intelligently. it's not going to sit in one location while the entire group hammers away at it. if you check out its stats, merely being brushed by it is far worse than its bite - it probably knows this. it would probably burrow up beside someone and then attempt to grapple and char them, or swallow them whole. if it felt big resistence - like getting hit for over 15 damage from a single attack, it would back off and tunnel away, and maybe continue this one or two more times. once below 25% health, it'd probably tunnel away for good.

Hmmm...Spring Attack feat to do hit and run attacks from the ground could be fun. Maybe even give it some Desert Wind maneuvers/feats for a nice fire-based skirmisher feel. The PCs are gestalt and got a free bonus feat, so I get to give one to any NPCs, and reserve the right gestalt...anything...I want to.

ultimately, in order to keep the battle safe and fair, let PCs make listen or knowledge checks the round before it surfaces, or make it go after stock animals like dogs or riding horses the first round or so, as it knows they won't be blasting it with all manner of strange arcane energies or sticking 5 feet of steel in its side.

Unfortunately, this dungeon is on an island they traveled to by ship. They didn't really bring any stock animals with them, and even left their animated dead hidden under piles of leaves outside of town (evil party) before embarking. They do have an expendable NPC going with them because he knows the ruin's secrets and whatnot. Remorhaz'll never hit that coward, though. All he ever does in combat is run away and buff his AC. They CAN summon Remorhaz fodder, though, if they think of it.

If it seems like a bad time to use this on the party, I could always try it out at a later time. Questions about what happens with the swallow + burrow still needing answers. It's just that the actual boss of the temple will not be encountered except as a "teaser," so I want a suitably difficult/satisfying encounter to make up for it.

[sblock]The boss will be a sacred watcher too strong for them at the moment. First round of combat, he's going to dismiss a wall of force holding back the mighty river that carved out the temple millenia ago -- said wall of force hidden behind an illusory rock wall to blend in with the stone surroundings -- which will then wash them all the way to the underdark for an extended sidequest, unless they pull off something really clever I guess. Once they claw their way back to the surface, the encounter will happen. And it will be epic.[/sblock]

I've always played the monsters appropriate to their Int and/or Wis scores in my campaigns.

Me, too. The Remorhaz is no genius, but seemed to have enough int/wis to know to eat and burrow away.

I won't use save-or-die spells on the PCs unless they use them on the BBEGs.

Heh, I have the same mutually assured destruction deal with Mord's Disjunction. Far as save-or-dies, my PC's the only one that ever used one, last time someone else DM. I never actually thought it'd work... Fortunately, I downed only one of a group of boss NPCs, so I didn't ruin the fight. Guess karma's gonna get me down the road.

A Huge remorhaz’s interior can hold 2 Large, 4 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, 128 Diminutive, or 512 Fine or smaller opponents.

You know...it could swallow the whole party! As for mass resist, I did at least nerf it to be a level 4 spell for everyone. It's...something.

I think it depends on whether the creature is a random encounter or if it's there for a purpose. If they're looking for it, then use it in this manner. They should be prepared and have thought of clever possible tactics. But if it's the requisite single wandering monster... well, I'd have it try to eat YOUR cleric in this manner, just so you don't get accused of favoritism.

Would you be okay with losing your cleric in this manner?

Well, I wouldn't be rolling on some table, but yes, it'd be a random encounter. They have no reason to expect it. I could have it try to eat my cleric. He is the only small character in the party, and thus a lighter meal, but it could. If the party did expect it, they'd probably just get scrolls of that SpC spell that makes you taste awful.

IMO, fun trumps reality in D&D.

I agree, as long as you're not throwing any semblance of realism out the door for even just a little more "fun."

Tremorsense only lets you detect creatures right?....If you swallow something and it cuts its way out underground and suffocates, then it's not a creature anymore and you can't see your food anymore. Sounds plausible at least..

That reminds me, my PC's getting Earth Sense next level, which might actually be helpful for such an encounter. Shame how you always gain stuff one level too late, no?
Another PC has 20' blindsense, but that's blocked by earth, so he likely wouldn't detect it till it was almost to the surface...

I guess my train of thought is if your tactic REQUIRES the invention of house rules, it's probably not a good idea to spring on the PCs without a fair warning.

Probably not. But it's a core monster and a basic issue of connecting the dots for its abilities. I thought it'd have come up by now.

The DMG has rules about being underground when it describes Earth-aligned planes. The rule appears to be that you are in danger of suffocation, and you can dig your way out at 5 ft per turn. Hope you dig the right direction...

Didn't think of checking that. 5 ft per round sounds like an amazing rate, but eh...I guess if you're buried alive you have enough problems w/o a DM imposing "realism." If the PC had darkvision, do you think he could see underground and get a spot check to discern where the ground is loose from the remorhaz's tunnels, as a means to pick an escape route? I'd assume so.

Allow (one of) the players to select the spell list if you're really worried you are biased.

Good idea, I should probably do that. Even though we all DM at some point or another, my PC's the only one that's not a spontaneous caster. I should probably arrange this from now on when I'm DM.