Would you allow an extra background instead of Feat?

[neogod22]

Well, first-level characters are already assumed to have some experience under their belt and, in most settings, are already more skilled and powerful than most people in the world. Zero level is pre-class.

I love level-0 games. I use the Dungeon Crawl Classics zero-level funnel and apply to 5e. Basically each player get four zero-level characters. In a way, because of backgrounds, it is more fun than DCC. In DCC you just have your stats and some equipment that make sense for your mundane background.

The idea is that most of the characters are going to die. Typically, the first adventure will either be a group of brave non-adventurers brought together by some event that would lead a fairly large group to come together to address, e.g.:

• A posse is put together to hunt down some baddies, free someone captured from the village, exact justice on someone who wronged the people of the village, etc.
• A sink hold appeared below Abe's house, and Abe and his house fell into some ancient ruins that nobody knows were located under his farm. A brave group goes to investigate and hopefully save Abe.
• A group of people of all walks of life is enjoying a traveling circus, which is actually a group of cultist who plans to perform dark rituals and human sacrifices.

You get the idea. In a four-player game, there will be 12 characters, in a 6 player game there will be 24, so it needs to be a scenario where that will work. It won't be a stealth job. The idea is that most of them are going to die. Of those that survive, you select one and choose a class.

I work well because it gives an origin story to the party that the players play an active role in making. It works best as part of a session zero so that nobody is disappointed if they were expected to come in with a 1st level character with a rich backstory written up and expecting to have plot armor protecting their precious, single character.

I don't see level 1 characters as having experience. I see them as being trained. There's a difference. A person who graduated from basic training or the police academy would be the equivalent of a level 1 fighter for example. They make it part of the characters' background also. Since training to be a fighter may not take the 10 years it takes a wizard to graduate from a wizard college. A rogue could've been in the streets stealing their whole life, but only a few months ago joined a guild and got the proper training needed to be an actual thief. You can always start level 1 characters without gear and have the same type of adventure as with your level 0 campaign.

 

[Li Shenron]

Player wants to be a human opera singer (1st level).
If she is an entertainer but asks to also be a noble (variant so she has a little extra money plus servants), would you allow noble to replace her human variant feat?
Is it balanced?
Obviously the request is for role-play more than combat.

On second thoughts I would not allow it.

There is already a core feat to represent the same thing, Skilled which grants a combination of 3 skills or tools proficiencies. Apparently this is the amount of benefits that the designers decided to be appropriate for a feat. A background grants 1 more proficiency (although only 2 can be skills) and a downtime benefit, so getting a background instead of a feat is effectively cheating, because it us absolutely not required for roleplay.

The traits / bonds / etc are not mechanical benefits so everyone is free to have as many as they wish.

Is one more proficiency a big deal? Does it break the game? NO. But then if you allow this, I want an extra weapon prof because it doesn't break the game. And an extra racial feature from a different race because it doesn't break the game. And one extra known spell because it doesn't break the game...

If you give one PC an extra, you either gotta make it a special reward for good playing, or give an equivalent bonus to all PC.

But then again if it's not a big deal, why does the PC need it?

 

[plisnithus8]

I had not really thought much about starting at level 0 before, but it sounds kind of interesting. How do you decide when to level up to 1st level? (Not looking for one 'right' answer, just wondering what each of you chose to do.) I guess it could even be just whenever the PCs themselves decide they are tired of getting their butts kicked and want to get on the road to being a badass.

The one I ran one before where had to find someone to train them.
It was a classy academy, really just a milestone to level up.

 

[5ekyu]

Player wants to be a human opera singer (1st level).
If she is an entertainer but asks to also be a noble (variant so she has a little extra money plus servants), would you allow noble to replace her human variant feat?
Is it balanced?
Obviously the request is for role-play more than combat.

I would have no problem with a feat granting a background. If you look at a feat like skilled - add three skills proficiencies and the others like linguist etc - i see little to worry me about such a choice.

If it were to be a choice made during play not at first, there would have to be (as with all feats) reasonable circumstances to allow it to fit the narrative. A prolonged stay in a culture or an apprenticeship.

 

[Li Shenron]

Player wants to be a human opera singer (1st level).
If she is an entertainer but asks to also be a noble (variant so she has a little extra money plus servants), would you allow noble to replace her human variant feat?
Is it balanced?
Obviously the request is for role-play more than combat.

I now checked the 2 specific backgrounds to have an opinion on the specific combination.

The noble background is particularly bogus. None of the granted proficiencies is particularly essential to represent a Noble. So I think the best solutions for this PC is either:

1) to simply have the Entertainer background, and a narrative history of nobility

2) considering the specific role of opera singer, to mix the two backgrounds by dropping Acrobatics and Musical Instrument (she doesn't need them) and gaining the noble's Persuasion and extra language ( the latter is very fitting with opera singers who often sing in other languages ). I'd also favour the noble's feature rather than the Entertainer's

 

[plisnithus8]

Here is how it’s shaking out for this particular character:

Granducha Vigorella Operetta (GeeVO to her opera fans)

Race: variant human (UA Empathic skill feat: +1 Wisdom, double Insight proficiency, use action to make Insight check contested by target's Deception - success gives her advantage on attack & ability at target until end of her next turn)

Background: Noble (variant/customized PHB p.118), skills: performance & persuasion, tools: disguise kit, language: dwarf, equipment: opera costume, fine clothes, scroll of pedigree, purse of 25gp

Feature:
(a) Retainers (2 instead of 3) - Daph a rock gnome with clockwork alarm clock & metronome/tuner & autopen (forges only GeeVO's name for her fans); Vel a forest gnome who makes illusions for both gnomes to hide when things get tense; they stand on each other's shoulders to dress GeeVO
(b) Recognition - people often recognize GeeVO (as much a negative as positive) and like her

 

[Krachek]

The feat skilled give three skills. Which is roughly what a background give.

 

[neogod22]

I had not really thought much about starting at level 0 before, but it sounds kind of interesting. How do you decide when to level up to 1st level? (Not looking for one 'right' answer, just wondering what each of you chose to do.) I guess it could even be just whenever the PCs themselves decide they are tired of getting their butts kicked and want to get on the road to being a badass.

If I were to run a level 0 game, it would be the prequel to the campaign. But it should be limited to a single session. Like you were all living in the same village and it get gets attacked by a giant, or dragon with its army. Have some NPC heroes help fight off monsters while the PCs and other villagers escape. Then when they reach some sort of safety (like the first walled city they get to), that's when the PCs (or maybe the villagers) decide they need to be the next heroes.
Then skip to years later, when the PCs are trained as level 1 characters about to embark on a quest to right the wrongs they were forced into.

 

[neogod22]

Well, first-level characters are already assumed to have some experience under their belt and, in most settings, are already more skilled and powerful than most people in the world. Zero level is pre-class.

I love level-0 games. I use the Dungeon Crawl Classics zero-level funnel and apply to 5e. Basically each player get four zero-level characters. In a way, because of backgrounds, it is more fun than DCC. In DCC you just have your stats and some equipment that make sense for your mundane background.

The idea is that most of the characters are going to die. Typically, the first adventure will either be a group of brave non-adventurers brought together by some event that would lead a fairly large group to come together to address, e.g.:

• A posse is put together to hunt down some baddies, free someone captured from the village, exact justice on someone who wronged the people of the village, etc.
• A sink hold appeared below Abe's house, and Abe and his house fell into some ancient ruins that nobody knows were located under his farm. A brave group goes to investigate and hopefully save Abe.
• A group of people of all walks of life is enjoying a traveling circus, which is actually a group of cultist who plans to perform dark rituals and human sacrifices.

You get the idea. In a four-player game, there will be 12 characters, in a 6 player game there will be 24, so it needs to be a scenario where that will work. It won't be a stealth job. The idea is that most of them are going to die. Of those that survive, you select one and choose a class.

I work well because it gives an origin story to the party that the players play an active role in making. It works best as part of a session zero so that nobody is disappointed if they were expected to come in with a 1st level character with a rich backstory written up and expecting to have plot armor protecting their precious, single character.

This can work with my scenario, but not particularly yours. I say this because you're forgetting that there are skilled and experienced characters in the world. Anywhere from traveling mercenaries and adventurers, the town guard or some nobleman's army, or even active and retired adventurers who may have settled down in the area. Usually a town isn't going to send innocent people to their deaths, they hire adventurers.

 

[guachi]

The skilled feat is three skills. A feat called "Background" that gives two skills, two tools/instruments, and some fluff isn't unbalanced.

Someone looked at races and determined that one skill equals two tools. So giving a free Background gives a little more but on the other hand I don't see people routinely saying the Skilled feat is overpowered.