D&D (2024) Wow, 5.5e characters are STRONG!

[UngeheuerLich]

Fireball is really not a good spell, it being the best 3rd level damaging spell is another thing.
Also it's upcasting damage scaling is horrible.

Althiugh I did not mention fireball before, I have to disagree. 8d6 damage at that level is good.
Our level 6 evoker threw them excessively and it worked better than hypnotic pattern. Because she could just throw them in melee without hurting the own party.
So she usually hit 4 or 5 people. A single fireball did 15 to 35 damage * 4 usually.

 

[James Gasik]

Well, I have some field data. Last night's session (level 7 party of 4-Cleric, Ranger, Monk/Fighter/Rogue...thing, Wizard) ended in a fight with a lich and 16 wights (they came in waves, 4 spawning each turn). To work around counterspell, I exited the room out of line of sight and tossed fireballs at clusters of wights.

The two level 3 fireballs did 35 and 25 damage. The upcast level 4 did 39. The DM intimated that the wights had more than the standard 45 hit points, though I'm not sure how much more- I took out one wounded wight with the first fireball, 3 more with the second, and four more with the third (which got the most targets). Overall, the rate of successful saving throws came out to 33%.

We ended up having to flee with the M/F/R (heh) downed behind enemy lines. I don't know if the adventure writer (Scarlet Citadel by Kobold Press) was trying to murder us, or if we just blundered into an area of the dungeon we weren't meant to be in yet- the lich had an important MacGuffin which we did get away with.

I guess the performance of the spell was satisfactory, given the circumstances, but unless you are an Evocation wizard, using it effectively is a challenge, and it's not a very efficient use of resources. 7/10.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I guess the performance of the spell was satisfactory, given the circumstances, but unless you are an Evocation wizard, using it effectively is a challenge, and it's not a very efficient use of resources. 7/10.

Depends. If they had standard hp, they all had dropped. And IIRC hypnotic pattern would have just not worked at all.
I agree that an evocation wizard has an ability that optimizers repeatedly dismissed as garbage in the beginning (mimimi, no extra damage), totally neglecting the fact that that ability makes fireball and even the low level burning hands effectively deal more damage by including way more enemies in the area.

Edit: and isn't it the perfect kind of spell. Satisfactory, when the situation is perfect. Still ok otherwise? Neither OP, nor garbage.
And since most OP spells are concentration, you can throw fireballs inbetween if you have resources to spare (upcasting to lvl 4 is really last resort though).

 

[James Gasik]

Depends. If they had standard hp, they all had dropped. And IIRC hypnotic pattern would have just not worked at all.
I agree that an evocation wizard has an ability that optimizers repeatedly dismissed as garbage in the beginning (mimimi, no extra damage), totally neglecting the fact that that ability makes fireball and even the low level burning hands effectively deal more damage by including way more enemies in the area.

Edit: and isn't it the perfect kind of spell. Satisfactory, when the situation is perfect. Still ok otherwise? Neither OP, nor garbage.
And since most OP spells are concentration, you can throw fireballs inbetween if you have resources to spare (upcasting to lvl 4 is really last resort though).

Normally I don't even use fireball, but in that fight, the ones I had available didn't really seem like good ideas. Slow can only catch 6 foes, Confusion was too small of an area, etc.. Plus I couldn't be sure I could avoid damage to keep concentration going for very long- in addition to all the Wights, some of whom had longbows, the DM was throwing 20's like mad, and there was choking smoke that you had to make a Con save against at the start of each turn or take necrotic damage that lowered you maximum hit points.

A lot of people crow about how great fireball it is (or gripe that it does too much damage). I don't know, my experience has been that it takes multiple fireballs to really make an impact, as mooks have a lot of hit points to chew through, fire resistance or immunity isn't super uncommon, and friendly fire isn't.

If I wasn't pretty sure I need a break from playing a full caster, I might be tempted to play an Evocation Wizard. The idea of just dropping Fireball on top of the melee while they're surrounded by enemies does sound like a lot of fun, lol.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Normally I don't even use fireball, but in that fight, the ones I had available didn't really seem like good ideas. Slow can only catch 6 foes, Confusion was too small of an area, etc.. Plus I couldn't be sure I could avoid damage to keep concentration going for very long- in addition to all the Wights, some of whom had longbows, the DM was throwing 20's like mad, and there was choking smoke that you had to make a Con save against at the start of each turn or take necrotic damage that lowered you maximum hit points.

A lot of people crow about how great fireball it is (or gripe that it does too much damage). I don't know, my experience has been that it takes multiple fireballs to really make an impact, as mooks have a lot of hit points to chew through, fire resistance or immunity isn't super uncommon, and friendly fire isn't.

If I wasn't pretty sure I need a break from playing a full caster, I might be tempted to play an Evocation Wizard. The idea of just dropping Fireball on top of the melee while they're surrounded by enemies does sound like a lot of fun, lol.

I think fireball is neither great nor bad. It is exactly right. Many people want it nerfed to 6d6. I don't think that is a good idea. The first fireball can make an impact. Usually kills some mooks and brings the other mooks in killing range for the melee guys.

What many people (me too) always forget: fireball creates difficult and damaging terrain more often than not. It ignites wood and so on.

 

[James Gasik]

I think fireball is neither great nor bad. It is exactly right. Many people want it nerfed to 6d6. I don't think that is a good idea. The first fireball can make an impact. Usually kills some mooks and brings the other mooks in killing range for the melee guys.

What many people (me too) always forget: fireball creates difficult and damaging terrain more often than not. It ignites wood and so on.

You know, I asked my DM about that when he kept shooting arrows at us. "Hey, did my Fireballs burn up their bows or arrows by chance?"

"Yeah, no."

Ah well.

 

[Maxperson]

Seems that is what it is actually about. You seem to play D&D to "win".

I'm not sure he actually plays 5e. He's argued here that wizards use tons of slots for divinations to find out where and when encounters are going to be, use tons of slots in combat, and tons of slots for out of combat utility. His wizards use 300% of their spell slots inside of a white room, but can't do that in actual game play. That he doesn't know that indicates that he reads, but doesn't play 5e.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not sure he actually plays 5e. He's argued here that wizards use tons of slots for divinations to find out where and when encounters are going to be, use tons of slots in combat, and tons of slots for out of combat utility. His wizards use 300% of their spell slots inside of a white room, but can't do that in actual game play. That he doesn't know that indicates that he reads, but doesn't play 5e.

Or it's 5 minute work day in action, the exact sort of thing you'd do if playing "D&D as war". You load up on divinations, use them all to gather intel, plan your assault, and long rest to load up on the spells you'll need.

 

[Maxperson]

Normally I don't even use fireball, but in that fight, the ones I had available didn't really seem like good ideas. Slow can only catch 6 foes, Confusion was too small of an area, etc.. Plus I couldn't be sure I could avoid damage to keep concentration going for very long- in addition to all the Wights, some of whom had longbows, the DM was throwing 20's like mad, and there was choking smoke that you had to make a Con save against at the start of each turn or take necrotic damage that lowered you maximum hit points.

A lot of people crow about how great fireball it is (or gripe that it does too much damage). I don't know, my experience has been that it takes multiple fireballs to really make an impact, as mooks have a lot of hit points to chew through, fire resistance or immunity isn't super uncommon, and friendly fire isn't.

If I wasn't pretty sure I need a break from playing a full caster, I might be tempted to play an Evocation Wizard. The idea of just dropping Fireball on top of the melee while they're surrounded by enemies does sound like a lot of fun, lol.

Fireball is great at 5th level or even 6th level. It drops off sharply after that since 5e is resource and hit point balanced, so monsters quickly gain lots of hit points.

 

[Maxperson]

Or it's 5 minute work day in action, the exact sort of thing you'd do if playing "D&D as war". You load up on divinations, use them all to gather intel, plan your assault, and long rest to load up on the spells you'll need.

That's really a DM created issue, though. It works if the DM sits there and lets it work.