WoW and 4e - where's the beef?

[Rechan]

What I think is interesting though is that, at the time of this posting, 22% of the voters have played WoW, and think 4e is like WoW.

 

[FireLance]

The archetypes exist in MMOs because they exist in RPGs. The archetypes are based on the four man D&D team: Fighter, Thief, Cleric, Magic-User.
Fighter = Tank
Magic-User = Blaster
Cleric = Healer
Thief = Damage dealer

To be fair, while roles kinda-sorta existed in older editions of D&D, they weren't as focused on combat. In addition, I think the roles were more defined around the PCs' strengths and weaknesses rather than their contributions to a group.

From that perspective, prior to 3e, the "roles" were more along the lines of:
Fighter = High defense; Continuous Moderate offense
Magic-User = Low defense; Continuous Low offense; Limited High offense; Limited magical utility (trade-off with limited High offense)
Cleric = Moderate defense; Continuous Low-moderate offense; Limited High-moderate offense; Limited healing and other magical utility (trade-off with limited High-moderate offense)
Thief = Low-moderate defense; Continuous Low-moderate offense; Circumstantial High-moderate offense (determining when a thief could backstab/sneak attack was less objective and more DM-dependent prior to 3e); Continuous mundane utility (scouting, overcoming locks and traps)

Hence, while the strengths and weaknesses of the various PC classes meant that they would naturally gravitate to certain roles in a party, they weren't as hard-wired into the design of the classes as 4e (and presumably, WoW - not a player).

That said, I do agree that every edition of D&D has at least implied the existence of roles. 4e has only refined the concept, made them more combat-focused, defined them in terms of contribution to the party, and used them to influence class design.

 

[Rechan]

To be fair, while roles kinda-sorta existed in older editions of D&D, they weren't as focused on combat.

I call shenanigans there.

What was the purpose of the Fighter, outside of combat?
What was the purpose of the Cleric, outside of healing wounds from combat?

Only two out-of-combat focuses existed:
The Thief. The thief SUCKED in a fight, but he had skills. So his lack of combat utility was balanced by him being bomb defuser.
Non-Combat related spells from spellcasters. Your Charm Person, your Adjure, your Scry and teleport, etc.

 

[Rechan]

My buddies & fellow groupmates, though, many of whom are major CRPG gamers were scanning through the 4Ed rulebook and horrified by elements they found in games with which they were familiar.

You mean like hit points, healing potions, levels, and classes?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You mean like hit points, healing potions, levels, and classes?

Funny!

No, like marking, healing surges, K3WL POW3RZZ for all classes, etc.

Like I said, their words, not mine.

 

[EroGaki]

Putting a label something makes it WoW like?

Except that many of the Cool Down powers come into play in things like Raids and big long fights that take way, way, way longer than 5 minutes. The reason that 4e notes "An encounter, OR five minutes" is that the power might be used out of combat, thus warranting a 'how long does this last when we're not in an encounter?"

You also need to be trained in Arcana, and spend a feat. In WoW, you get those professions free.

Except there was Alchemists and making Alchemy, and crafting items, in 3e. Hell, you didn't need a feat to make alchemical items (just a skill), but you needed a Feat to make magical items in 3e.

My belief is that people use the "It's just like WoW" as a catch-all derogatory without any experience/knowledge with either. It's just an easy dismissal; I highly doubt those that do think it's like WoW (but have not played it) know anything about making items in WoW, or the Disenchant method, for instance.

If you look hard enough, you can find similarities between two things that, while they have something in common, are not alike. "4e is just like Anime" because it has super-powered characters with wuxia named powers. "4e is just like Exalted" because there are effects that last all encounter/scene, and everyone has magical powers. "4e is just like M:tG" because of the symbols/colors, and the use of Cards (Power cards, quest cards). "4e is just like a boardgame" because it's so focused on square based movement. "4e is just like furries" because there are Dragonborn, which are anthropomorphic dragons with breasts. "4e is just like your mom" because (whatever).

Back before the 4e books were out, one of the common messageboard criticism was that 4e looked so "anime". This spawned a big long thread where someone said, "So, where's the anime?" No solid examples were found, but the thread concluded it was just more a general feeling or impression without straight parallels.

You could be right. I was simply pointing out the things that stuck out in my mind about the system. You are free think what you wish. My intention was not to say it is like WoW, but to point out some of the things that can cause people to think it resembles WoW. Personally, I feel that 4E has more in common to WoW than 3e does, but meh. That's just my opinion.

I was drawing similarities; I never said that they were the same. Any character is two feats away from being able to enchant magic items. Magic items can be disenchanted, like in WoW. That's all I'm pointing out.

I don't think that saying the games have certain similarities is a "catch-all derogatory." WoW was, after all, based off of RPG's like D&D. What's wrong with the reverse?

 

[FireLance]

I call shenanigans there.

What was the purpose of the Fighter, outside of combat?
What was the purpose of the Cleric, outside of healing wounds from combat?

Only two out-of-combat focuses existed:
The Thief. The thief SUCKED in a fight, but he had skills. So his lack of combat utility was balanced by him being bomb defuser.
Non-Combat related spells from spellcasters. Your Charm Person, your Adjure, your Scry and teleport, etc.

Exactly. Lower XP to gain a level aside, the thief's lower effectiveness in combat was supposed to be balanced by his ability to overcome noncombat challenges (admittedly, rather specific noncombat challenges, but noncombat challenges nonetheless).

And if the spell lists were anything to go by, the designers expected spellcasters to prepare noncombat spells to deal with noncombat challenges (whether the players were actually encouraged to do so in play was ultimately left to the individual DM, of course). In the absence of the Insight skill, the PCs might make use of ESP or detect lies. The PCs might also seek guidance through the use of augury, divination, commune, or contact other plane.

Of the four "base" PC classes, only one had a primarily combat role: the fighter. As is perhaps implied by the name.

 

[Rechan]

You could be right. I was simply pointing out the things that stuck out in my mind about the system. You are free think what you wish. My intention was not to say it is like WoW, but to point out some of the things that can cause people to think it resembles WoW

Sure; I'm just in a "Point, counterpoint" mood.

I don't think that saying the games have certain similarities is a "catch-all derogatory." WoW was, after all, based off of RPG's like D&D. What's wrong with the reverse?

Depends on your perspective.

I'm not exaggerating; I've seen those very claims here. Before 4e was launched, "It's just like anime" and "It's videogamey" were used in a derogatory fashion, because they were used in sentences like "I don't like it because it looks videogamey".

The problem many have with the reverse is: it's dumbing D&D down, stripping away what they feel "is D&D" out of it, taking away "the roleplaying", making everything about combat, killing creativity, and taking the flavor out of everything.

Just to use a reason against videogame influence in RPGs in this very thread:

To paraphrase, they felt that if they wanted to play a CRPG, they'd play one they're already in.

 

[EroGaki]

Sure; I'm just in a "Point, counterpoint" mood.

Depends on your perspective.

I'm not exaggerating; I've seen those very claims here. Before 4e was launched, "It's just like anime" and "It's videogamey" were used in a derogatory fashion, because they were used in sentences like "I don't like it because it looks videogamey".

The problem many have with the reverse is: it's dumbing D&D down, stripping away what they feel "is D&D" out of it, taking away "the roleplaying", making everything about combat, killing creativity, and taking the flavor out of everything.

Just to use a reason against videogame influence in RPGs in this very thread:

Fair enough. You do bring some good points. I know people who are turned off to 4E because it "feels video-gamey" too. Me, I've given up on 4E, not because any so called video-gameyness, but because in the end, after playing it for a few months, it didn't satisfy my D&D itch; ultimately, it didn't feel enough like D&D for me. But I might be weird.

 

[Dark Mistress]

I have never played WoW but i have played several other games like it online. I played 4e for awhile to see how it would play.

To me it is more the style 4e pushes forward the most. Some other posters covered some aspects. yes previous editions to a point had some of the same stuff but 4e has pushed them more forward.

And for me the game play with the power system reminded me of online games. No it wasn't the same or even mostly the same, but it did have a slightly greater feel for that than previous editions did.

But what you are asking is for peoples opinions and thats all they are. What makes something feel one way or another or why someone likes something or other. Is often a matter of perception.

This thread isn't going to get to the bottom of anything I doubt, nor is it likely to change anyones mind and it just might start up a flame war.

The bottom line is 4e is what it is and either you like it or you don't. It reminds you of what ever it reminds you of or not, due to ones own personal experiences.

Ok done rambling hopefully this makes since but it might not, it is well after 4am locally. Still dealing with insomnia as I have been all week and I am getting a bit slap happy from lack of sleep.