[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

Psion said:
That's a pretty big "except" if you ask me.

Add that to the 15-minute-to-use-and-spell-in-your-books-rule, the flexibility of this wizard feature is fairly potent.
Definitely, yes. But as I stated initially, psions are like sorcerers not wizards. Sorcerers don't get all the goodies wizards get, because of their spontaneous casting ability. Psions do... and have this ability as well, even in a more powerful (more flexible) fashion.

Bye
Thanee
 

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No objective proof? I think my comparisons of psion and sorcerer are quite objective (at least I try to be as objective as possible, even tho it might not really sound that way :)). The examples are not what it's all about. If you only refer to some examples I give, you won't get the whole point. I'm trying to argue about the very basic fundamentals of each class.

Psion said:
That perception relies on comparing an unbuffed third level running up against the level fence to an essentially 8th level power. If you slant your examples like this, of course they are going to come out looking like it's in your favor.
Erm, that was not really what the example was about... and if you read it again, I actually say that myself up there. :)

An example to show that the psion outperforms the sorcerer in terms of damage dealing would involve powers and spells at their maximum, of course. But that's pretty obvious, that the psions wins that comparison. It's one of their inherent class advantages with the PP system, and really nothing I have any problems with (they have more flexibility and therefore can do more in shorter time). I have a problem with the fact, that they can do this and also have a higher number of powers, also get faster access to more powerful powers, also get bonus feats, more skill points indirectly, and so on, and so on, and so on.

A sorcerer can swap out their spells every other level.
While the psion does not need to, since their powers already include the higher level versions (which also indirectly increases their effective powers known) and have no caps.

That said, I would agree on the whole, it appears that the sorcerer comes off a bit weak compared to the psioni, even considering the above.
Yep.

But as others have said, you have misidentified the problem. The psion is not incredibly strong, from what I can see. Rather, the sorcerer is weak. This has been something people have brought up in debates that don't even talk about the psion.
That's indeed an important point.

And yes, I am of the opinion, that the sorcerer is not weaker than the wizard, maybe slightly (depends on campaign style also), but not much at least. Not even close to how much the psion is more powerful compared to the sorcerer.

In my game experience with 3.5 the sorcerer is definitely on par with the other classes. In fact, I think that pretty much all of the PHB classes are quite balanced to each other in 3.5. The spellcasters still have an advantage at higher levels, naturally, the divine casters are still very powerful throughout all levels, but fighter-types have been improved quite a bit, while some of the more broken caster abilities (i.e. haste, buffs) have been toned down a lot, which greatly improved the balance between those.

Bye
Thanee
 

nameless said:
First off, very few beneficial psionic powers can be used on others. Like monks, psions are great at protecting themselves, but lousy at keeping the rest of the party alive and together.
Havn't looked at this yet. In 3.0 there was a feat, which allowed them to use their personal powers on others. The psion in our 3.0 campaign easily outperformed the cleric as the party healer, btw. ;)

But yeah, in general they have quite a few personal powers (some of those have other advantages instead, like inertial barrier, which has no material cost, but fortunately is not 10/- now).

The weaker power selection compared to the vast arcane spell list is the biggest disadvantage, psions have to face IMHO. But given, that psions know more relevant powers through almost all levels than sorcerers, I doubt, that they are not well-suited for non-combat situations. But I'll take a closer look at the power list to see what can be done to help others, later.

Bye
Thanee
 

Is there any psionic equivalent to limited wish? That one spell alone almost entirely circumvents the sorc's reduced flexibility.
 


We have updated and started playing the psion in my game.

Seems to work fine.

There are some specific point items that may be questionable, but that seems to be the case with every new product.

Overall, it works fine.
 

Hey, Bryon. Would you care to give some more specifics, like level and what characters the party consists of?

Would also be interesting to know, what specific powers / feats the psion character picked.

Bye
Thanee
 
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While the psion does not need to, since their powers already include the higher level versions (which also indirectly increases their effective powers known) and have no caps.

As has already been noted, many powers don't scale well, or scale inefficiently, or don't scale at all. When it does scale, often the end results are not as effective as the higher level spell equivalent of a sorcerer (take a look at some of the energy powers. Though you can pump in PP to get damage and DC up, often you are still left affecting fewer targets than an equivalent level sor/wiz spell). And all scaling requires the input of more power points, which in the sorcerer's world would be equivalent to charging the sorcerer higher level spell slots, when often the psionics equivalent is that of a lower level spell cast at the higher level, NOT that of a spell of the higher spell level.

Couple that with the fact that psion power slots are not level specific, I beleive that the absence of swapping is a telling feature.

So in short, I think there is a LOT of give and take you are not considering in your supposedly objective examples, and the truth is that they are a lot closer than you make out. Though I still agree the sorcerer probably comes up a little short.

That said, sorcerer has never failed my ultimate balance litmus test. To wit, I beleive that if a class really is unbalanced, players will detect this and play it preferentially. Despite many theoretical analyses on clerics (showing they are strong) and sorcerers (showing they are weak), sorcerer still remains the most played spellcasting class in my games, and I hardly ever see a cleric played. So while there may be some theoretical weakness, I think the litmus test shows that they are pretty minor in scope if there is any authenticity to the claim.
 
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Psion said:
As has already been noted, many powers don't scale well, or scale inefficiently, or don't scale at all. When it does scale, often the end results are not as effective as the higher level spell equivalent of a sorcerer (take a look at some of the energy powers. Though you can pump in PP to get damage and DC up, often you are still left affecting fewer targets than an equivalent level sor/wiz spell).
Interesting enough, I would rate the energy ... powers among those that look most impressive compared to the arcane versions (energy bolt to lightning bolt, energy ball to fireball - yeah, I know it's 4th level - +/-1 level is still within the parameter of "flavor" as shown with the other classes (i.e. enchantments for bards, dispel magic or flamestrike for druids, etc.)). Now with the errata/clarification, dominate is up there, too.

Really, I havn't seen much in terms of psionic powers, that looks bad compared to equivalent arcane spells (given that you pay the PP to scale, of course).

However, there are plenty arcane spells, which have no psionic equivalent!

And all scaling requires the input of more power points, which in the sorcerer's world would be equivalent to charging the sorcerer higher level spell slots, when often the psionics equivalent is that of a lower level spell cast at the higher level, NOT that of a spell of the higher spell level.
The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).

It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.

And don't forget, that it is just an option for psions to scale low level powers instead of using high level powers. They get twice to four times as many real high level powers to choose from compared to the sorcerer!

More choice is always a benefit.

(Note: Of course, this also applies to the selection, the arcane casters choose their spells from.)

Overall (including scaling and the added flexibility of the PP system) psionic powers and arcane spells seem roughly balanced to me (have said this before).

Couple that with the fact that psion power slots are not level specific, I beleive that the absence of swapping is a telling feature.
I believe that it is directly related to the automatic upgrades, so to say (i.e. dispel includes greater dispel, psionic weapon includes greater psionic weapon, etc.). The sorcerer has the swapping ability exactly to do this (upgrade spells to higher versions, or discard spells that - thanks to cap - are useless now, but were good before - otherwise such spells will almost never be used).

So in short, I think there is a LOT of give and take you are not considering in your supposedly objective examples, ...
Actually, I think those points have been addressed in my critique (that is the scaling issues (non-automatic and costly) and the weaker selection). Anything else I have missed?

That said, sorcerer has never failed my ultimate balance litmus test. To wit, I beleive that if a class really is unbalanced, players will detect this and play it preferentially. Despite many theoretical analyses on clerics (showing they are strong) and sorcerers (showing they are weak), sorcerer still remains the most played spellcasting class in my games, and I hardly ever see a cleric played. So while there may be some theoretical weakness, I think the litmus test shows that they are pretty minor in scope if there is any authenticity to the claim.
Yeah, the differences between the core classes are pretty minor in my opinion.

Clerics, sorcerers, etc. they all are pretty unique also, favoring several different tastes and playing styles. Psions and sorcerers, however, are very similar (even more than sorcerers and wizards I'd dare to say, because of their similarities in design and the general similarities between psionic powers and arcane spells, which are much closer than divine magic to each of them).

I'm pretty sure, that with the XPH included in a campaign, sorcerers (generally) will be played FAR less. Of course, this is pure guess-work.

Bye
Thanee
 
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Thanee said:
Hey, Bryon. Would you care to give some more specifics, like level and what characters the party consists of?

Would also be interesting to know, what specific powers / feats the psion character picked.

Bye
Thanee

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