[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Psion]

I believe that it is directly related to the automatic upgrades

Oh, I do too. I think that building in the scaling means that you aren't as compelled to allow swapping.

But this feature is not without its consequences. You want a combat power early, and to your fortune, many of these combat powers scale. However, later powers also scale, but have more benefits. So you may take energy ray at first with the knowledge that you can pump it later as you go up levels. But energy ray will not substitute for energy stun or energy ball at the same PP cost; it's obvious to me that scaling will not make first level powers serve as the total equivalent of higher levels powers at the same PP cost. So as a psion, if you want to take this power at a higher level, you risk having to overlap with powers you already have. It's not the same no-brainer sort of choice for a first level spell/power that the sorcerer faces.

 

[BryonD]

The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).

It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.

And don't forget, that it is just an option for psions to scale low level powers instead of using high level powers. They get twice to four times as many real high level powers to choose from compared to the sorcerer!

More choice is always a benefit.

I disagree with this analysis.

A sorcerer 8 casting a third level fireball gets an 8d6 fireball for a 3rd level slot. The sorcerer can chose to cast a 6d6 fireball if he wanted to for some reason.

A psion spending 5 points will only get the third level power effect. If he wants to get more effect he is forced to spend more points (thus making it a 4th level power). So it is actually the sorcerer who has more flexibility on that count.

They can both produce a 3rd level effect if they desire.
They can both power-up, but the sorcerer gets the power up by default.
The only advatage that the psion has here is a +1 DC. Coming at the price of +1 level spell slot (effectively the 3.5 spell focus with the added penalty of +1 spell level)

Again, there are other areas where a psion shines. I am certainly not saying that they got the bad end of the deal. But if you count augmented powers as additional effective powers known, then you need to also count improving spell effectiveness in the same way.

 

[ph0rk]

Interesting enough, I would rate the energy ... powers among those that look most impressive compared to the arcane versions (energy bolt to lightning bolt, energy ball to fireball - yeah, I know it's 4th level - +/-1 level is still within the parameter of "flavor" as shown with the other classes

Unless one is a kineticist, you MUST spend a feat to learn energy ball, and you can't even do that until you can manifest 5th level powers; at level 9.

And, if you are a kineticist, then you must spend a feat to get dominate, mindlink, suggestion, astral construct, control breathing, teleport, schism, and metamorphasis.

You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath). Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.

The 9th level kineticist power is tornado blast, which is absolute garbage compard to meteor swarm.

So, while a sorceror will have access to fireball by level 6, the psion doesn't have an energy spell with a similar area of effect until 9th level (7 if kineticist).

The scaling, as the psion has it, does not translate into the sorcerer's world. If it would, the sorcerer would not have spell slots of specific levels to begin with. The non-automatic scaling is the limiting factor for the psion's flexibility to not get completely out of hand (as in hundreds of "magic missiles" per day).

Technically, the sorceror can already do that. There are some Psion spells of similar usefulness, though none that automatically hit w/ no save and no attack role, and most would cost 5+ pp to do similar damage. (i.e. as much as a 3rd level spell)

You don't really want to tell me, that fireball (your prime example) is better than energy ball (yes, it's 4th level, but that is no big difference in the long run... some spells/powers are always +/-1 level (i.e. dominate is -1 for psions)), do you?

It is different. As stated above, most psions won't even -have- energy ball; and those that do won't until 9th level! So, you see I couldn't have really made ym example much lower, unless you real gripe is Kineticists vs Sorcerors.

As for which spell is 'better' it depends. Sorcerors have access to better spells at level 9 and higher, so the only real comparisons using fireball can be made from 5-10. After that, obviously, energy ball (for those few psions that can manifest it) is competing with bigger, nastier spells.

I think (if you have the book) you should try making a psion, somewhere between 5-10th level, and see how many powers you -wish- you had, but don't have the feats for!

I don't really think the balance issues even matter after level 15; then its all about who spots who first and unleashes hell. Rod of greater quickening + meteor swarm?

How about Metamorphic Transfer as an example.
Do you think this feat has been playtested?

Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less. Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).

Big deal.

It has the inherent weakness that psions need to augment many of their powers to some degree to keep them effective. Arcane casters have the caps and restricted level slots instead.

And don't forget, that it is just an option for psions to scale low level powers instead of using high level powers. They get twice to four times as many real high level powers to choose from compared to the sorcerer!

yes, but they don't have as many offensive powers in their general list. and in fact they have much fewer powers in general on the list.

More choice is always a benefit.

One could argue that a Sorceror, through spell replacement, has access to far more spells through their career than does a psion.

I'm pretty sure, that with the XPH included in a campaign, sorcerers (generally) will be played FAR less. Of course, this is pure guess-work.

Well, WotC should have thought of that before they published (for a SECOND time) an inherent-magic caster that needs friggin material components!

 

[Spatula]

You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath). Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.

Well, not until epic levels, anyway (through the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat).

 

[ph0rk]

Well, not until epic levels, anyway (through the Epic Expanded Knowledge feat).

What are these epic levels you speak of?

True, they could buy those powers with a feat then, but then they would be selling themselves short, as sorcerors and wizards would be getting 10th and 11th spell slots with their feats.

Tornado blast ain't no enlarged mazimized empowered horrid wilting. :/

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Thanee,

I think the main reason people are disagreeing with you is based on the foundation of your argument. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a great many other players, sorcerers are not equel in power to wizards.

In my opinion, Psions and Specialist Wizards are well balanced together. A Kineticist and Invoker are both going to dominate the battlefield. Their level of power output are about the same. Some powers are better than spells, and some spells are better than powers. They are just different. For most of this thread, you have been comparing a kineticist to a sorcerer, which is about equel to a generic wizard (or less so in my opinion). That's about like comparing the damage output of a regular wizard to an Invoker. You just can't do that.

The sorcerer, on the other hand, falls short of both classes. In my opinion, the spontaneous casting isn't enough to put the sorcerer on even ground. Given the wizards ability to cast any spell in his spellbook in 15min and the free scribe scroll feat, the wizard will almost always have an answer to whatever problem you have.

If you really want to see if the psion is overpowered, you should be looking at the other end of the power spectrum....the cleric. But, unfortunately the classes are so different, it'd be hard to compare them.

I suggest you build a 10th level psion, wizard, and sorcerer and then take another look at all three. The XPH is FILLED with all sorts of awesome powers and feats that look really nice. But, in reality, you'll only get to sample about 10% of those things. You just don't get enough powers, PPs, and feats to make psions that are as unbalanced as you make them seem.

Another problem I've noticed is your disregard for the psion's lack of 0 level powers. Those powers are very handy and most players will be willing to drop a 1st level power or two to pick up powers like Detect Psionics and Far Hand.

The sorcerer has more known powers. But, some of them are 0 level and I'll admit are not always useful. In the end, I'd consider the number of known powers to be about equel between the psion and sorcerer.

 

[Thanee]

It's not the same no-brainer sort of choice for a first level spell/power that the sorcerer faces.

Yeah, the advantages of those two approaches are different for sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The only advatage that the psion has here is a +1 DC. Coming at the price of +1 level spell slot (effectively the 3.5 spell focus with the added penalty of +1 spell level)

How about you compare this to a heightened spell. That sounds pretty similar to me.

Again, there are other areas where a psion shines. I am certainly not saying that they got the bad end of the deal. But if you count augmented powers as additional effective powers known, then you need to also count improving spell effectiveness in the same way.

Just that the spells have caps, so their usefulness has a limit (to even this out it doesn't cost anything to scale up to that cap). But yeah, in general I do agree with that, altho I have probably mentioned it in another context.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Unless one is a kineticist, you MUST spend a feat to learn energy ball, and you can't even do that until you can manifest 5th level powers; at level 9.

Yeah, tho the feat is basically free, if you compare with the sorcerer who doesn't get bonus feats.

And, if you are a kineticist, then you must spend a feat to get dominate, mindlink, suggestion, astral construct, control breathing, teleport, schism, and metamorphasis.

You can -never- have True metamorphasis (aside from a special RP situation with a high-level Telepath). Likewise you can never have true mndswitch, reality revision, true creation, mass time hop, or greater metamorphasis.

I'm aware of that, as I have stated several times by now.

It is different. As stated above, most psions won't even -have- energy ball; and those that do won't until 9th level! So, you see I couldn't have really made ym example much lower, unless you real gripe is Kineticists vs Sorcerors.

As for which spell is 'better' it depends. Sorcerors have access to better spells at level 9 and higher, so the only real comparisons using fireball can be made from 5-10. After that, obviously, energy ball (for those few psions that can manifest it) is competing with bigger, nastier spells.

Hey, arcane casters are the masters of evocation spells, right?

How about dominate? It's the same just the other way around (and that psions still get the goodies (like multiple targets, with energy ball this refers to the multiple elements) not wizards/sorcerers with their higher spell level).

I think (if you have the book) you should try making a psion, somewhere between 5-10th level, and see how many powers you -wish- you had, but don't have the feats for!

I'm quite sure, that this will be easier than with the sorcerer!

3-4 spells of the highest level compared to 1-2 is quite a difference!

I don't really think the balance issues even matter after level 15; then its all about who spots who first and unleashes hell. Rod of greater quickening + meteor swarm?

p. 236 DMG 3.5 ?

Metamorphasis cannot assume the form of construct, outsider, or undead, and the 4th level version (again, -only- egoists will have the 9th level version) is good for 15 hd or less. Metamorphic Transfer lets you use a form's supernatural ability 3 times per day (as in 3 uses of any supernatural ability per day).

Big deal.

Uhm... ok, I havn't looked for an example yet, but I am sure, that there will be PLENTY abuses of this feat! There are so many monsters out there...

yes, but they don't have as many offensive powers in their general list. and in fact they have much fewer powers in general on the list.

Sure. This is what I also identified as one significant disadvantage earlier.

And having not many offensive powers is really not important... You won't need that many, anyways. Who needs 20 offensive powers, if you can use only 4 or 5 of those regularily? It's the same as with the sorcerer, you have to pick lots of multiple purpose utility spells and a good selection of few offensive spells. Psions just have a lil edge here, since they have far quicker access to their high level powers (earlier and more initially), and the powers also often have multiple options built-in, too.

Well, WotC should have thought of that before they published (for a SECOND time) an inherent-magic caster that needs friggin material components!

Yeah.

Look at my next post!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think the main reason people are disagreeing with you is based on the foundation of your argument. In my opinion, and in the opinion of a great many other players, sorcerers are not equel in power to wizards.

Looks like.

In my opinion, Psions and Specialist Wizards are well balanced together. A Kineticist and Invoker are both going to dominate the battlefield. Their level of power output are about the same. Some powers are better than spells, and some spells are better than powers. They are just different.

Yep.

For most of this thread, you have been comparing a kineticist to a sorcerer, which is about equel to a generic wizard (or less so in my opinion). That's about like comparing the damage output of a regular wizard to an Invoker. You just can't do that.

I was using a generic psion actually, with Expanded Knowledge, everyone will have access to energy ball.

And the comparison with the sorcerer is obvious, since you cannot easily compare psion and wizard, because they are so different in how they use powers/spells.

The sorcerer, on the other hand, falls short of both classes. In my opinion, the spontaneous casting isn't enough to put the sorcerer on even ground. Given the wizards ability to cast any spell in his spellbook in 15min and the free scribe scroll feat, the wizard will almost always have an answer to whatever problem you have.

Well... my experience with the sorcerer is different, but I won't deny, that most people seem to be of this opinion.

If you really want to see if the psion is overpowered, you should be looking at the other end of the power spectrum....the cleric. But, unfortunately the classes are so different, it'd be hard to compare them.

Yep. And clerics are not as bad as in 3.0, too.

You just don't get enough powers, PPs, and feats to make psions that are as unbalanced as you make them seem.

You definitely get enough to pick up all the stuff I used in examples. That's actually not much.

Expanded Knowledge a few times. Quicken Power and Psionic Meditation.
What else do they really need in terms of feats? Maybe Power Penetration...

Another problem I've noticed is your disregard for the psion's lack of 0 level powers. Those powers are very handy and most players will be willing to drop a 1st level power or two to pick up powers like Detect Psionics and Far Hand.

Oh, I make plenty use of those, too. But they are not really compareable to the power of even a 1st level spell/power. I'd only pick up Detect Psionics from those.

The sorcerer has more known powers. But, some of them are 0 level and I'll admit are not always useful. In the end, I'd consider the number of known powers to be about equel between the psion and sorcerer.

We can quickly make a comparison...

Sorcerer:

_1st 4/2
_2nd 5/2
_3rd 5/3
_4th 6/3/1
_5th 6/4/2
_6th 7/4/2/1
_7th 7/5/3/2
_8th 8/5/3/2/1
_9th 8/5/4/3/2
10th 9/5/4/3/2/1
11th 9/5/5/4/3/2
12th 9/5/5/4/3/2/1
13th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2
14th 9/5/5/4/4/3/2/1
15th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2
16th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1
17th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2
18th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/2/1
19th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/2
20th 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3

Psion:

_1st -/3
_2nd -/5
_3rd -/5/2
_4th -/5/4
_5th -/5/4/2
_6th -/5/4/4
_7th -/5/4/4/2
_8th -/5/4/4/4
_9th -/5/4/4/4/2
10th -/5/4/4/4/4
11th -/5/4/4/4/4/1
12th -/5/4/4/4/4/3
13th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/1
14th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3
15th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/1
16th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3
17th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/1
18th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
19th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/4
20th -/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/6

Show me the levels, the Sorcerer is actually better at! Please!
Maybe 1st...

Anyways... since you all are of the opinion, that the sorcerer just sux...

The re-revised Sorcerer

Tell me what you think about the upside down approach.

Bye
Thanee