[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[ph0rk]

Ok, here are some examples...

Pixie (1 HD) - greater invisibility.

using a 4th level power, and then a feat, to cast a 4th level spell doesn't seem bad to me.

Choker (3 HD) - three extra standard actions.

Not familiar with other things the choker form provides, but 3 standard actions (only usable while in that form, mind you) doesn't seem that bad.

Medusa (6 HD) - turn to stone.

who cares? sure it's nice, but not a game breaker at 7th level

Most of the sickest of supernatural abilities are owned by aberrations; check those out.

Also; bear in mind that you can't become something with more hit dice than you have manifester levels; no beholder disintegrate at level 7.

And, as always, unless the psion is an egoist, they have to spend -another- feat just to get this power, and then they must be level 9, not 7.

Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.

I was using a generic psion actually, with Expanded Knowledge, everyone will have access to energy ball.

No, they won't. It isn't as if the psion has an unlimited number of feats, and on top of that they still can't have energy ball until level 9. thats 3 levels of sorceror PWNAGE until the non-kineticist can even play the same game. And then, once they are playing the same game, the sorceror will be able to toss out well more fully-scaled (not even counting maximized, etc) balls of flaming death than the psion.

If you really want to complain about a psionic character out-nuking a Sorceror; check out the wilder.

Hey, arcane casters are the masters of evocation spells, right?

No, Evokers are the masters of evocation spells; Sorcerors pale in comparison.

How about dominate? It's the same just the other way around (and that psions still get the goodies (like multiple targets, with energy ball this refers to the multiple elements) not wizards/sorcerers with their higher spell level).

What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like? And, like most good powers, Only a Telepath can get this one without a feat.
I don't know how you can even compare them; duration concentration? for a telepath?!? A sorceror at 9th level will be able to out dominate a telepath, period. Days per level, people. Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat? It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power. Item creation, anyone?

 

[ph0rk]

That is unfortunately not so easy, spontaneous casting/manifesting versus prepared casting is hard to judge.

Well, which is it? You say the Sorceror is well balanced with the wizard, and you've accepted that the psion is more or less balanced with the wizard.... so whats the problem?

A wilder can do all the things you've used as psion examples, and do them better, as none of your examples used more than 1 or 2 feats. I don't see anyone claiming the wilder is unbalanced. The fact that you've said that you don't think the feat use proves to me you don't fully understand everything in the XPH; psions need those feats! And as for psions being able to have a metapsionic feat and power penetration... read the descriptions. Thats right; you can use one or the other. not both on the same power.

 

[Irritating Stick]

What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like? And, like most good powers, Only a Telepath can get this one without a feat.
I don't know how you can even compare them; duration concentration? for a telepath?!? A sorceror at 9th level will be able to out dominate a telepath, period. Days per level, people. Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat? It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power. Item creation, anyone?

There's an errata in the works, Dominate can be augmented to up to 1 day/level

XPH Clarifications

 

[BryonD]

Of course, wizards cannot cast spontaneously, remember?

If you think spontaneous casting is not good, give it to wizards on top of their other abilities. Then you'll quickly see, just how good it is.

What I am saying is, that sorcerers give up ALL that stuff - compared to the wizard - plus the unlimited spell access to gain spontaneous casting (and a few more spells per day, altho wizards have specialization and pearls of power to even that out); and I believe the ability is worth that. Psions give up NONE of that stuff - again compared to the wizard - except the unlimited spell access to gain an even superior spontaneous casting ability (they don't have more spells per day than wizards (roughly equal probably), but also have access to items and other stuff to build their PP base up). This makes them far superior to sorcerers. And since I am going from the core balance, that sorcerers are as powerful as wizards, it also makes them far superior to wizards as a result.

But the psions ALSO give up scaling of effectiveness per power (or spell) slot level.

That is still a very big deal. A 3rd level slot (5 pp) NEVER gets any better for a psion.

Use the wizard as a base. The sorcerer and the psion each give up soemthing to gain on the fly casting. The sorcerer gives up all the extras as you describe. The psion gives up scaling.

I'd rather give up the extras than scaling. Augmentation is VERY different than scaling because scaling is free. Now, the psions gain other perks that you previously covered. Those make up for the lose of scaling being so weak.

An 18 Chr 10th level sorcerer can throw sixteen 10d fireballs per day.
An 18 Int 10th level psion can throw ten 10d+10 fireballs per day.
And the psion will be down to 8 pp.
The sorcerer will have 6 cantrips, 7 first and 7 second level spells left.
So that is better than a 60% increase in efficiency for the sorcerer.
PLUS the sorcerer in this example has chosen to "waste" his 4th and 5th level slots on 3rd level spells. He could potentially do better with higher level spells.
The psion is working at peak efficiency, using basically all of his juice on effective level 5.5 powers.

But the psion gains bonus feats, metal "casting", etc, and these things easily make up for that disadvantage.

Like I said, I've only been through it for a short time and only had one real gaming session so far. In 6 months I may think it goes a bit to far. OTOH, I may think it doesn't go far enough. But on early review, and considering the somewhat subjective nature of some of the contrasts, I think it works "good enough" for players to have fun either way.

Now, if this assumption (sorcerer = wizard) is false, the problem - indeed - does not lie with the psion, but with the sorcerer, as you say.


I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion!

I think wizards and sorcerers are roughly equal, I try to show you (which I think most actually agree with), that psions are much more powerful than sorcerers. Now, this can mean two things... sorcerers are underpowered or psions are overpowered.

Bye
Thanee

I agree that sorcerers work fine. A touch boring at times, but mechanically fine.

I have just shown that sorcerers are worth more apples than psions.
I am certain that you can just as easily show that psions are worth more oranges.
That would be a good thing.

Just don't try to make to much straight up comparison between psion and sorcerer just because neither of them prepare spells. It is not prepared vs. spontaneous. It is prepared vs sponatneous vs power points. And PP vs. spontaneous is just as big a difference as either is against prepared.

P.S. BTW, nice character... converted from 3.0? Since in 3.5 you normally cannot reincarnate into a centaur.

Thanks. It is my wife's character that she has played since right after the first psi book came out. I actually house-ruled it quite a bit at that time because I thought (and still do) that the original psion sucked. Eventually my house rules were dumped when ITCK and mindscapes came out because I liked those and adapted to using them straight.

As far as the centaur thing, eh, I never let the rules get in the way of a good game. You'll note that I did not give her any centaur HD or LA. She was already like level 9 or 10 when the change occured. She already had more HP than a centaur, so I just assumed that they were "built-in". And as a psion, most of the perks of the centaur were reduced. The other players agree that her character is no stronger overall than any other, so we just go with it.

 

[Shadowdweller]

A few observations:
Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:

- Psionics can be manifested while grappled or even paralyzed.
- Rogues? Psions cannot be caught surprised or flat-footed (Detect Hostile Intent. Compare this bad boy to Foresight!)
- Blindness easily defeated (Synesthete, Touch Field)
- Cannot easily be killed with damage (Fiery Discorporation)
- Difficult to interrupt manifesting (Psionic Focus can be expended for the equivalent of a natural 15 on concentration checks), although I suppose a normal spellcaster could easily take wild talent and accomplish this themselves.
- Immediate manifestation of energy resistance powers to get around the surprise fireball (Detect Hostile Intent will allow you to get around the flatfooted part)
- Sickeningly enough, psionic powers can even be manifested while confused (Unconditional Power Feat).
- Dispelling? There's that hour/ML power, Dispelling Buffer to puts things in the psion's favor.

Yes, these all require a significant inventment. Yes, there are limitations. Mages also often invest significant resources to defending themselves, however. How many of you have experienced that BBEG mage nemesis who just won't die? How much worse would it be if he/she/it were lacking most of the weaknesses you already try to use?

 

[ph0rk]

A few observations:
Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:

- Psionics can be manifested while grappled or even paralyzed.

From the XPH:
"To manifest a power, you must concentrate. If something treatens to interrupt your concentration while you're manifesting a power, you must succeed on a Concentration check or lose the power points without manifesting the power."

It then goes on to list the SAME dc to manifest while pinned as to cast while pinned. DC 20.

A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what? (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)

- Rogues? Psions cannot be caught surprised or flat-footed (Detect Hostile Intent. Compare this bad boy to Foresight!)

Compare Detect Hostile Intent to an invisible vampiric rogue. ouch.

Also no bonus to ac and reflex saves, and of course you could still be sniped from 35+ feet away. (no sneak, but you can't sneak attack from that distance anyway).

- Blindness easily defeated (Synesthete, Touch Field)

Synthesthete is 1 minute/level, not a permenant cure.

There is no power named Touch Field; did you mean Touchsight?

Also a duration of 1 minute/level. (and short radius; its really blindsight for 60')

Niether is a remove blindness/deafness.

- Cannot easily be killed with damage (Fiery Discorporation)

Kineticist 5, so other psions can't touch it till 11th level.


Nice, as long as there is a fire around. (always carry a torch?). If its an encounter gone bad, the party still eats it; however. Seems fine for a 5th level power to me.

- Difficult to interrupt manifesting (Psionic Focus can be expended for the equivalent of a natural 15 on concentration checks), although I suppose a normal spellcaster could easily take wild talent and accomplish this themselves.

You forgot to read that part about a full round action to regain focus, that provokes an AOO. Also; all that great juju that worked with your focus turns off.

- Immediate manifestation of energy resistance powers to get around the surprise fireball (Detect Hostile Intent will allow you to get around the flatfooted part)

sure, if its on. Unless its a vampire wizard
(or a wizard with mind blank on, which any self-respecting wizard who is capable should do)

- Sickeningly enough, psionic powers can even be manifested while confused (Unconditional Power Feat).

You must expend focus, so unless you can REGAIN focus while confused, you're borked. (Use it once till you are unconfused, nausiated, etc)

- Dispelling? There's that hour/ML power, Dispelling Buffer to puts things in the psion's favor.

Kineticist/Psychic Warrior 6. So, no other psions till 15th (when they get the first feat they can use to buy the power). It adds a +5 to the dc to dispel any ongoing effects (but note: not items) on the recipient. Not that big a deal for a 6th level power.

Yes, these all require a significant inventment. Yes, there are limitations. Mages also often invest significant resources to defending themselves, however. How many of you have experienced that BBEG mage nemesis who just won't die? How much worse would it be if he/she/it were lacking most of the weaknesses you already try to use?

You mean the BBEG might escape the heroic band of adventurers? It might be IMMUNE TO FIREBALL!?!?

Bring on the Monk Vampire Lord, anything but an evil Psion!

 

[Shadowdweller]

You want to start trading insults? I’ll be more than happy to oblige. Somewhere out there, though, is this thing called the “big picture.”

A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what? (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)

You mean a still and silent spell without materials. The psion pays no increase in casting cost and has no opportunity cost for even keeping such a thing prepared.

Niether is a remove blindness/deafness.

Only needs to be long enough to either finish the battle, escape the battle, or effect a cure. The psion doesn't suffer the immediate debilitation of being unable to target the enemy.

You forgot to read that part about a full round action to regain focus, that provokes an AOO. Also; all that great juju that worked with your focus turns off

You forgot to read such wonderful feats as Psychic Containment or Psionic Meditation. If you stick around in a situation where you need to make concentration checks more often, then calling you “strategically challenged” would be a compliment.

Compare Detect Hostile Intent to an invisible vampiric rogue. ouch.

“I’m gonna turn myself into a vampire just so I can catch that annoying psion.” Very viable strategic choice, that.

Also no bonus to ac and reflex saves, and of course you could still be sniped from 35+ feet away. (no sneak, but you can't sneak attack from that distance anyway).

Congratulations. One’s a second level power, one’s a ninth level spell. Hmm, if we cut out chaotic creatures we’d cut out maybe half of what Gate can do. Think that’d make for a balanced second level spell? Or maybe if we limited miracle to replicating cleric spells only. That’s surely not worth a 3rd level slot!

You must expend focus, so unless you can REGAIN focus while confused, you're borked. (Use it once till you are unconfused, nausiated, etc)

After one manifestation you should either be a) not confused, nauseated, etc anymore or b) not in such pressing need of being free to act normally for the next few minutes.

You see, the wizard is ostensibly balanced because it has real weaknesses despite world-breaking power and immense versatility. Enter the psion, whose power is at the very least comparable. Does the psion have those same, EXPLOITABLE weaknesses? Really?

To the rest of you, my sincere apologies for that outburst. Allow me once again to reiterate my original point: Psions are immune or nearly immune to many of the classic anti-arcane tactics.

And on another note:There are obviously people here with WILDLY different concepts of what 'game balance' means. It's one thing to calculate opportunity costs of dealing with/creating some offensive or defensive tactics. Or opportunity costs of choosing one class over another. It's quite a different thing entirely to reason that the power to create or destroy the world is balanced merely because you can only use it once per day.

 

[Spatula]

There are obviously people here with WILDLY different concepts of what 'game balance' means.

Different strokes for different folks.

Psion are better off than other spellcasters in some circumstances (you forgot one: the silence spell). But it's not like they have no foils. Aside from all the anti-psionic feats in the XPH, there are psion powers that are made to take out other psions (brain lock, ecto coccoon, etc.).

 

[Thanee]

using a 4th level power, and then a feat, to cast a 4th level spell doesn't seem bad to me.

No, if it only does that, I agree. But it does a lot more than that (besides it increases the duration of the spell by factor ten as well).

Not familiar with other things the choker form provides, but 3 standard actions (only usable while in that form, mind you) doesn't seem that bad.

Well normally you need a 9th level spell/power to achieve this effect (granted it's even more powerful then, since not limited to 3 "uses", but still).

who cares? sure it's nice, but not a game breaker at 7th level

Lemme see... *browses in book* Ah, there... Flesh to Stone... 6th level... *browses back* 6th level spells/powers are achieved at 11th character level normally.

Most of the sickest of supernatural abilities are owned by aberrations; check those out.

Yeah, but that doesn't make the other ones weak, or does it?

Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.

See above. Flesh to Stone. And it's really not one ability I'm worried about, but the fact, that this feat literally grants HUNDREDS of those abilities!!!

No, they won't.

Points to the word "access". Not necessarily means that everyone wants it.

If you really want to complain about a psionic character out-nuking a Sorceror; check out the wilder.

I have only looked that up quickly... what's so bad about the wilder? The automatic augmentation seems pretty fair (it's only the couple bonus augmentations and at a risk as well; he still has to augment normally, if I get this right). And they have severe limits (i.e. really, really few powers). But as I said, I havn't checked the class in detail.

No, Evokers are the masters of evocation spells; Sorcerors pale in comparison.

Really? How so? And what is it that makes an Evoker better than, say, a Diviner in evocation?

What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?

Yes, I have. You obviously have not.

Just so you know, too, psions CAN change the duration to minutes, hours or even days instead of concentration! Has been clarified already and will be in the upcoming errata.

Can we restrict comparisons to powers -all- psions have access to w/o a feat?

No, comparisons have to include all reasonable options (see below) or they are not accurate.

It is really easy to just say you can use a feat to get a power without playing a psion and understanding what you -aren't- getting because you're getting a feat with that power. Item creation, anyone?

Well, I am going from the sorcerer, that doesn't have bonus feats and that has to burn feats on metamagic. Psions don't need that. So yes, they have enough feats for Expanded Knowledge, and I'm quite sure you will see the feat quite often on a psion character sheet as well.

Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Well, which is it? You say the Sorceror is well balanced with the wizard, and you've accepted that the psion is more or less balanced with the wizard.... so whats the problem?

Ahem... please don't take my arguments out of context.

I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the psion, yes.
I have never said, that the wizard is. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer).

I also said, it's harder to compare to very different approaches (sorcerer - wizard or psion - wizard), instead of too very similar (sorcerer - psion).

I can't really say about the wilder... maybe he is as bad... I honestly don't know by now.
I just see a lot of restrictions there, the psion does not have them to that degree (only up to what the sorcerer has, too).

The fact that you've said that you don't think the feat use proves to me you don't fully understand everything in the XPH;

And that comes from a person, that says Metamorphic Transfer is "no big deal".

psions need those feats!

Make a list please, what feats psions ABSOLUTELY need to keep up!
I can't find that many, really... Psionic Meditation is one...

And as for psions being able to have a metapsionic feat and power penetration... read the descriptions. Thats right; you can use one or the other. not both on the same power.

Yes, I know. Check out my re-revised psion to see that I do.

Bye
Thanee