[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

But the psions ALSO give up scaling of effectiveness per power (or spell) slot level.

That is still a very big deal. A 3rd level slot (5 pp) NEVER gets any better for a psion.

Hey, the above was based on the assumption, that augmentation and the added flexibility and all the benefits arising from those are quite balanced with the automatic scaling and caps. So this is a non-issue.

Use the wizard as a base. The sorcerer and the psion each give up soemthing to gain on the fly casting. The sorcerer gives up all the extras as you describe. The psion gives up scaling.

No, they don't. They just use a different method of scaling, which has advantages and disadvantages, of course.

An 18 Chr 10th level sorcerer can throw sixteen 10d fireballs per day.
An 18 Int 10th level psion can throw ten 10d+10 fireballs per day.

If you are going to compare fireballs, look for my much more accurate example above. Of course, even that example doesn't really say anything.

I have just shown that sorcerers are worth more apples than psions.

No you have only listed one example out of million possible situations, what if the psion has the upper hand in the other millions minus the one? Examples don't really prove anything, you can only use them to illustrate something.

Just don't try to make to much straight up comparison between psion and sorcerer just because neither of them prepare spells. It is not prepared vs. spontaneous. It is prepared vs sponatneous vs power points. And PP vs. spontaneous is just as big a difference as either is against prepared.

Absolutely.

But you can't pick out a disadvantage of augmentation and compare it with scaling without keeping the many advantages in mind as well. Get back to the post where I replied to this...

...So far that seems a fair trade.

That is exactly my opinion as well!

That is the assumption I make, that powers and spells are about equal including augmentation, scaling, caps and all what is unique to them.

Then, I say, that psions get a lot of other benefits over the sorcerer, which the sorcerer has nothing to compare against.

Oh, and please don't say I'm comparing apples with oranges, since I am not. I picked the sorcerer exactly because he is very similar. Spells and powers are very similar, many even equal. It's not like comparing the way a fighter deals damage with that of the cleric or wizard. It's comparing to very, very similar approaches. Maybe they are two different kinds of apples, but surely not as far apart as you suggest!

The other players agree that her character is no stronger overall than any other, so we just go with it.

Sounds fair enough.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A wizard can cast a still silent spell while paralyzed too. so what? (You mean you don't mem a still silent dispel and a still silent mage hand?)

*LOL*

You really have nerves... the advantage here is, that the wizard needs those two feats (and actually have them applied, too), three actually (Eschew Materials), the psion gets it for free!

If that's not an advantage in your eyes...

Now, let's take a look at the sorcerer... they cannot even use metamagic in a grapple!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Psion are better off than other spellcasters in some circumstances (you forgot one: the silence spell). But it's not like they have no foils. Aside from all the anti-psionic feats in the XPH, there are psion powers that are made to take out other psions (brain lock, ecto coccoon, etc.).

Yeah, one of the problems I have with that stuff is, that while it might not be bad, much of it is specifically tailored to deal with psions and useless against anything else.

Who would learn such stuff, unless you are some kind of psion-hunter (not very common) you won't, because of the extremely limited applications. Simple as that.

So, while surely some of those are nice, they can almost (!) be neglected.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Telperion]

* As much powers per day as wizards have spells per day, if they distribute evenly.
* Many more high level powers per day than any other caster, if they choose so.
* Equal or more powers known as sorcerers.
* Always more high level powers known as sorcerers.
* In addition, low level powers that scale to high level powers, thus even more.
* Quicker high level access compared to sorcerers (as wizard).
* Bonus Feats, as wizard.
* Int as their primary stat, as wizard.
* Powers that are one-by-one more powerful than compareable spells.
* An about equally broad selection of powers as the arcane casters have spells.

* drools *
Still waiting for that book to ship over, but I'm hopeful it will happen one of these days...

 

[green slime]

* drools *
Still waiting for that book to ship over, but I'm hopeful it will happen one of these days...

Ordered mine from amazon.co.uk

Arrived after two days...

(Sweden)

 

[glass]

I'm actually the only one here (or not?) that does not have this opinion!

Not quite the only one. I don't think sorcerers are weaker than wizards, either.

glass.

 

[green slime]

Well, I feel that sorcerers are weaker than wizards. IMO, and YMMV...

 

[BryonD]

No, they don't. They just use a different method of scaling, which has advantages and disadvantages, of course.

Oh, and please don't say I'm comparing apples with oranges, since I am not. I picked the sorcerer exactly because he is very similar. Spells and powers are very similar, many even equal. It's not like comparing the way a fighter deals damage with that of the cleric or wizard. It's comparing to very, very similar approaches. Maybe they are two different kinds of apples, but surely not as far apart as you suggest!
Bye
Thanee

Well, that is where we are just going to disagree.

The sorcerer scaling is vastly better than the psions and the difference makes sorcerers as different from psions as they are from wizards. (again, augmentation is NOT a version of scaling, a psion always get the same result from a third level power - 5d. Even an epic psion will only get 5d from a third level power.)

There are many, many examples that mimic the pattern I presented above where the total potential of a sorcerer vastly overshadows that of the psion.

It is PLENTY of a disadvantage to the psion to justify their advantages.

 

[Dinkeldog]

First, make sure we keep things civil here. I've seen a couple accusations of other people tossing insults and complaints that people are taking arguments out of context. I'm seeing few insults here, mostly just a difference of opinion. That's the nice thing about opinions--there's enough to go around.

Now...

I'm not seeing the argument that psions have more powers than sorcerers have spells. At a couple lower levels they come close, but all of the psion's 0-level talents (and free manifestations) are rolled into 1st level. To make the #powers > #spells comparison, you have to eliminate the 0-level spells. That probably makes sense to some, but won't to others. My favorite 0-level powers are now 1st level, still cost a "power known" and now cost PP.

I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.

 

[Zhure]

I've taken a look at the psions and they seem more powerful than wizards at first blush.

Upon closer examination they don't appear to be.

Only 1 metapsionic feat per manifestation until epic levels. Compare to a Wizard launching a Maximized Empowered Fireball (8th level equivalent - 73 points, 17th level caster). The Kineticist (a specialist) spends 15 pp on Energy Ball to get either 15d6 (52 points of damage) at 15th level, or at 17th level spends 17 pp to get a 17d6 Energy Ball (59 points of damage). Using metapsionics the psion Maximizes for 11d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 66 points of damage) or empowers 13d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 68 points of damage.) The psion is a wee bit behind in damage, but a lot ahead in flexibility since he effectively gets Energy Substitution for free and doesn't have to prepare.

We can further compare examples of Extended or Maximized powers vs spells but the wizard has relatively the same benefits. The Psion has to spend an extra MEA and an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) or a full round, double-provoking an AoO much of the time. The Wizard has to prepare in advance.

- The Wizard gets a familiar for free. The Psion does not.

Personally I think the balance points are pretty close. The only real way to compare the two camps is for the "Psions are overpowered camp" is to build a psion and rate it against a Sorcerer or Wizard built by the other side and do a side-by-side comparison. Too often in these sorts of debates there's a lot of talk of hypotheical wizards (Schroedingers Wizard, I call it, he's all things all the time, indeterminate). Wizards pay an opportunity cost in spellbooks and scrolls, feats and schools. Psions's opportunity costs are in their feat and discipline selections. Picking one path blocks another, so the psion who can use Metamorphic Transfer probably is an egoist and he'll be weaker than a Transmuter for a few levels because he gets his cool polymorph ability a little later. Afterwards he'll be a little more powerful.

While one feat gives the metamorph a lot of supernatural options, the summoner wizard gains a lot of supernatural options via his summoned animals and at no feat cost with a lot lower risk to himself.

It's all about trade-offs.

So far, the arcanists and the psioncists seem fairly balanced to me.

Greg