[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

Sorry. Can somebody please catch me up on this. Do all psions now manifest based on their INT scores, or is it still tied to their chosen discipline. Also, what's the deal with psicrystals. Do they still get them as a class feature at first, and improve comparable to a familiar. Has Mr. Cordell done away with the party scout entirely? what's up? Thank you.

 

[James McMurray]

I was under the impression that there wasn't any sort of core blindsight spell. Where's it from, anyway? I may have seen something like this way back when, but I'm all but positive it was of a considerably higher level (seeing as how Darkvision is a second level arcane spell).

It isn't core, but its as Core as the XPH. Its in Savage Species in a 3.0 version. The 3.5 version is in the Player's Guide to Faerun. The balance between it and Darkvision is a factor of range (30' for blindsight) and duration (1 minute per level for blindsight). The savage species version is 3rd level, but the 3.5 PGtF version is 2nd level.

Anyone can cast while grappled (or pinned), the concentration DC is 20. Granted the spell must not have a somatic component, but this can be got around with still spell, and is little different than discussing a wizard in chains. (And if its a comperable level monk, the wizard might as well be in chains )

The psion can manifest any power he wants to while grappled or pinned. The spellcaster must have still spell, or restrict himself to verbal only spells. If he is pinned, the verbal spells go away as well. Additionally, unless he has Eschew, he will have to already have grabbed his material component before he was grappled.

The only thing that in my mind isn't easily replicatable is Fiery Discorporation, but all that does is allow the psion to leave while the party dies, assuming a TPK and a fire close by. On the other hand if the Psion is the BBEG, thats just the sort of ability a BBEG -should- have. It's big bad evil guy, not standard bad evil guy

It also lets the psion live while the rest of the party dies. The enemy spellcaster that "killed" him then makes his spellcraft check and identifies the power, so he can wait next to the fire with his 50 buddies the next day. I don't mind Fiery Discorporation at all. I think its flavorful and balanced. Your best bet is to get the party tank to carry a torch, or the party monk. That way when you discorporate he can carry you away.

Arbiter: All psions use Int. Wilders use Cha. Psychic Warriors use Wisdom. Psicrystals are now a feat rather than a class ability, but you do get a bonus feat at 1st level, so can easily grab a crystal if its important tothe character.

 

[Thanee]

Well, that is where we are just going to disagree.

Fair enough.

Allow me one more commont on this, tho.

The sorcerer scaling is vastly better than the psions and the difference makes sorcerers as different from psions as they are from wizards. (again, augmentation is NOT a version of scaling, a psion always get the same result from a third level power - 5d. Even an epic psion will only get 5d from a third level power.)

What I am saying is, while the psion has to augment to keep up with the automatic scaling, which is an obvious disadvantage, I believe that spells and powers are roughly balanced all in all, if the following is included:

- automatic scaling of spells
- spell caps
- unlimited augmentation (up to manifester level)
- flexibility of augmentation and multiple options of powers (i.e. the energy substitution stuff, or powers that are almost modular in nature, i.e. dominate)

Yes, spell scaling is better, it's the price to pay for the added flexibility in this context, so to say.

From this foundation, psions can roughly do the same as wizards/sorcerers with their powers - maybe slightly less - if they restrict themselves to a moderate augmentation of lower level powers and don't scale everything to the max. They do have the option to do so, but don't have to.

That's where my argument starts... see above for the rest.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I'm not seeing the argument that psions have more powers than sorcerers have spells.

Somewhere up there I have posted a direct comparison... it's in post #110.

And you surely have noticed, that psions know up to 3-4 times as many real high level powers than sorcerers. And at most levels they know at least twice as many, often three or even four times (in the very important mid-range levels).

I don't know how the 0th level spells can compete with that...

I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.

Yep. Single examples don't mean much, as I have stated, too.

Altho the general point, which this example was part of (I think Shadowdweller posted it), is quite valid, that psions are quite resilient versus "anti-spellcaster-tactics".

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I've taken a look at the psions and they seem more powerful than wizards at first blush.

Talking about the sorcerer mainly, as they are easier to compare (spontaneous versus preparation is harder to judge).

Only 1 metapsionic feat per manifestation until epic levels.

Considering, that psions don't really need metapsionics to achieve the same (or similar) results, that's really tough.

Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!

Eschew Materials (ok, general )
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell
4x Energy Substitution (at least in the energy range of powers)

Empower and Maximize - two of the probably most powerful metamagic feats are also not that much more effective, than a standard augmented power of the same level (including the metamagic modifier, of course). Yes, damage will be lower a bit, but save DC will be higher instead, which is not too bad.

Compare to a Wizard launching a Maximized Empowered Fireball (8th level equivalent - 73 points, 17th level caster).

Ok.

The Kineticist (a specialist) spends 15 pp on Energy Ball to get either 15d6 (52 points of damage) at 15th level, or at 17th level spends 17 pp to get a 17d6 Energy Ball (59 points of damage). Using metapsionics the psion Maximizes for 11d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 66 points of damage) or empowers 13d6 for 15 pp (losing his psionic focus and yielding 68 points of damage.) The psion is a wee bit behind in damage, but a lot ahead in flexibility since he effectively gets Energy Substitution for free and doesn't have to prepare.

So, your examples says, that the psion is ahead here, right?
And that does not figure in the much higher save DC of the augmented power compared to a 3rd level spell, or does it?

We can further compare examples of Extended or Maximized powers vs spells but the wizard has relatively the same benefits.

You are speaking of the wizard who has spent quite a few feats on metamagic, which the psion has not (see above). The same wizard, that has to decide at the morning, where to apply that metamagic, which the psion does not have to. Right?

The Psion has to spend an extra MEA and an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) or a full round, double-provoking an AoO much of the time. The Wizard has to prepare in advance.

Yeah, the AoO is a notable disadvantage there, but since they don't need metapsionics, it isn't that important here (more when using Power Penetration, for example).

- The Wizard gets a familiar for free. The Psion does not.

Slight nit-pick: Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free.

Personally I think the balance points are pretty close.

Hard to say with the wizard, really. The wizards main advantage of preparation is hard to judge against the ultimate flexibility of the psion. That's why I base my arguments on the sorcerer (and as stated elsewhere, I assume the wizard and sorcerer being roughly equal, maybe a slight advantage for the wizard - this is also based on my experience in play so far).

The only real way to compare the two camps is for the "Psions are overpowered camp" is to build a psion and rate it against a Sorcerer or Wizard built by the other side and do a side-by-side comparison.

I actually think this is not very useful, unless it is done in a plethora of very different examples.

I believe that my technique of comparison - comparing the class mechanics, not single examples - is more accurate, really.

Picking one path blocks another, ...

Yeah, though Expanded Knowledge does lessen this quite a bit.

So the psion who can use Metamorphic Transfer probably is an egoist and he'll be weaker than a Transmuter for a few levels because he gets his cool polymorph ability a little later. Afterwards he'll be a little more powerful.

A little? We are talking about one with Metamorphic Transfer here, or not?

Can you imagine how many powerful abilities this feat alone allows to use (the Flesh to Stone thing (3/day at the cost of a single 4th level power even) is just one example)? The possibilities are almost endless considering how many monsters are out there!

While one feat gives the metamorph a lot of supernatural options, the summoner wizard gains a lot of supernatural options via his summoned animals and at no feat cost with a lot lower risk to himself.

I don't think this comes even close... summoned monsters have some nice abilities, but they are hardly as overwhelming as what that single feat (well two, if you add in Expanded Knowledge for the power) allows.

It's all about trade-offs.

Yeah, but you have to trade equally powerful abilities to each other.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Spatula]

Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!

Eschew Materials (ok, general )
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell

Not all powers that allow saves can be "heightened" through augmentation.

 

[Thanee]

What are you talking about? Brain Lock & Ecto Coccoon are the psionic versions of Hold Person. Both powers stop the target from acting, they're not specifically anti-psion powers. Brain Lock stops mental actions, which stops not only psions but spell-like abilities as well. Even if the target has none of these, it still can't do anything else. Ecto Coccoon doesn't stop mental actions but it stops movement, blocks line of effect, and is immune to dispelling. Why is the use of these powers so "extremely limited"?

Misunderstanding, I was talking about the anti-psion feats.

Those powers stop psions and they stop anyone else, too. Hardly something, that takes away anything from psions.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Technically a wizard could cast that much earlier with a scroll. (as could a scorceror).

No comment...

Granted, thats a spell a wizard can't actually cast, but they can certainly make use of it otherwise.

I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use. It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.

Isn't that 7 PP?

Anyways... If you have some plenty time at your hand, start browsing through the various monster books out there...

I'll restate only one of my quick examples... with the medusa form the psion can use the "Flesh to Stone" 3 times for a total of 7 PP! A single use of the power normally costs 11 PP. Yes, it does cost a feat (or two even), but I'd say, that ability ALONE is worth it. And then you add like HUNDREDS other abilities into the mix, for the same two feats and 7 PP (one at a time, no additional cost involved). The DC of the ability even scales with the psions level. This feat is so sick, it could even rival the 3.0 Psychofeedback in power (the most hilarious spell/power I have seen to this day)!

The other bit is, how is a Psion going to assume the form of a creature he or she has never seen or read about? If they don't exist in a certain world, it'd be even harder!

Yeah, that's surely a hindrance. Some DMs will enforce this, some won't. There are knowledge skills to circumvent it, tho (all class skill for the psion, too, IIRC).

I have heard that, and it ain't published yet, now is it?

It's so to say a first glimpse at the errata, no it's not yet fully offical, but it's clear, that it will be, so it can be considered as granted.

My point is that you -must- use expanded knowledge to gain some of the powers that mimic relatively common spells. Fly, Dominate, Energy Ball, Metamorphasis - all these are list powers and require feats to attain. On top of that you can't even learn them with a feat until you can manifest powers one level higher.

Absolutely. 100% agree. That's the psions biggest disadvantage I have identified so far. It doesn't match their advantages, tho.

Have you made a mid or high level psion and really thought about what abilities you'd actually like to have, and what you had to do to get them?

No. Just looked at the possibilities.

Is that what you meant to say?

*LOL* No, that was pretty much utter crap. Sorry for the confusion!

What I actually meant is...

I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the wizard, yes.
I have never said, that the wizard is with the psion. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer).

This discussion has obviously descended to minutae; we can debate specific powers vs specific spells for days and days.

Erm. I don't think that what I say most of the time, is "specific". Actually I try to be most general. Sure there are some specific examples added in, but they are just that... examples. Sometimes a feat or power has to be called for to show up a huge issue (like Metamorphic Transfer).

Apparently a small few people beleive that Psions are unstoppable; so be it.

Never said that.

I'm not here to change your mind. I don't believe they are. Yes they do things differenly than Arcanists, because they aren't arcanists. In my opinion, it would have been pretty stupid if they published a book that contained nothing but a glorified spell-point system and arcane spells.

100% agree.

To some, thats what playing a caster is all about.

They can do it. No problem. Only said, that a psion won't need many item creation feats to do useful stuff (just one). Personal preferances are of course not discussable. Everyone has likes and dislikes.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

~+~ Summary ~+~

For the record, here's what I am basically saying in a nutshell...

Summary of comparison between psion and sorcerer:​

* * * * *​

Assumption: Spells and powers are roughly equal.

Note: This includes scaling/non-scaling, caps/no caps, -/augmentation (i.e. "lesser" and "greater" all-in-one), -/built-in flexibility (modular powers).

* * * * *​

Major Fact: There are more spells than powers to choose from. Also some especially powerful psionic powers are only accessible via a feat (Expanded Knowledge to access other discipline's power lists), which further limits the psions selection.

Fact: Powers often only work on the psion where spells can also be cast on teammates.

Fact: Sorcerers can cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, given that psions augment their powers to some degree. The additional spells are of a relatively low level, tho (which makes them far from useless, however, especially since they scale up to some point). If you add up spell slots to compare with a higher level power (say, something like two 2nd level spells roughly equaling one 4th level power), both come out much more similar, since psions have more high level manifestations at the expense of lower level ones usually.

* * * * *​

Major Fact: Psions get access to higher level powers one level earlier compared to sorcerers.

Major Fact: Psions get much more high level (relative to character level) powers known than sorcerers. Often 3-4 times as many!

Major Fact: Psions get the effect of several metamagic (one general) feats (Eschew Material, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution) for free (no feat cost, no augmentation cost (except Heighten), no increased manifestation time, no expenditure of psionic focus, nothing). Spellcasters need several feats to keep up with this ability and still won't be able to achieve the same results. Also to some extent, augmented powers can keep up with empowered / maximized spells (slightly lower effect, slightly higher save DC).

Major Fact: Psions can spontaneously use Quicken Power, sorcerers cannot use Quicken Spell that way (and can only use it at all by spending another feat on Arcane Preparation).

Fact: Psions have more flexibility in applying their power points compared to the sorcerer's spell slots. Psions can manifest much more high level powers compared to the sorcerer's high level spell slots. While psions can almost resemble the sorcerers spellcasting (altho the sorcerer will have some more low level spells then (see above)), when they don't augment to the max, they also have the option to burn their PP quicker for a vastly more devastating effect (high amount of high level manifestations). Sorcerers do not have the latter option. Especially at higher levels, the ability to manifest huge amounts of high level powers is a major asset. They also can technically manifest extreme amounts of unaugmented low level powers, but that doesn't seem like a very effective use of their flexibility (thanks to the non-automatic scaling, otherwise it would quickly reach insane levels, so this limit is very important to the psion's flexibility).

Fact: Psions get better skills and more bonus feats than sorcerers (even if you exclude the first two to keep up with familiar and to get Psionic Meditation to keep up with metamagic application). They also can wear armor with no chance to ruin their manifestations.

Fact: Metamorphic Transfer is broken like no tomorrow!

Fact: Most of the above applies to all (or at least most) character levels.

* * * * *​

Conclusion: Psions are vastly superior to sorcerers!

* * * * *​

One thing not covered is the comparison between Spell Focus / Spell Penetration and the psionic equivalents. Psionic Endowment / Power Penetration can only be used by expending the psionic focus (regain as move action normally). This means that psions can't use them simultaneously (except once when they spend another two feats on Psicrystal / Psicrystal Containment). They both have a higher effect, tho (roughly twice as good). With Psionatrix, psions can effectively "buy" a Spell Focus equivalent (no Greater version, tho). That seems - all in all - roughly equal to me, especially considering, that the psionic focus is probably mostly used for only Power Penetration or Quicken Power, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Fact...
Fact...
Fact...
Fact...
Fact...
Fact...
Fact...
Fact...

Well, I guess we can all shut up then. Our opinions are clearly unwelcome in light of all of these indisputable facts.