[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[ph0rk]

That seems - all in all - roughly equal to me, especially considering, that the psionic focus is probably mostly used for only Power Penetration or Quicken Power, anyways.

Check out all the feats that enhance movement and require psionic focus. (up the walls, speed of thought)

Also; if you really want a low level power that seems unbalanced, check out energy missile. kin/2 (though you can bet my telepath has it at 5) It is one of the few powers that scales one damage die per extra pp -and- one point of DC per pp.

Few powers augment that well, though; and the hard cap of 5 targets isn't as handy at higher levels.

Another interesting combo is the astral construct (shaper 1) and the improved astral construct feat (wrong name). Druids w/ augment summoning work better though, IMHO.

 

[Thanee]

Well, I guess we can all shut up then. Our opinions are clearly unwelcome in light of all of these indisputable facts.

Your opinions are very welcome, but you probably cannot deny, that these are facts, which can be proven.

If anything important is amiss (or actually wrong), please point it out.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Check out all the feats that enhance movement and require psionic focus. (up the walls, speed of thought)

Yeah, I think those are more useful for psychic warriors, tho, than psions.

Not that psions can't utilize them, of course...

Bye
Thanee

 

[ph0rk]

Fact: ....

I take issue with all your facts, they are still open to interpretation and I am not prepared to grant them as is.

also: One really big thing you've missed with quicken power (and Schism, earlier) is anything that costs PP or lowers effective ML -directly- impacts scalability through augmentation. You can only spend so many pp per round, and if using a feat costs 8pp and you're 16th level, your power is otherwise only scalable as if you were 8th level. ouch.


so a quickened energy ball at 16th level couldn't possibly do 16d6, etc.

 

[Thanee]

Also; if you really want a low level power that seems unbalanced, check out energy missile. kin/2 (though you can bet my telepath has it at 5) It is one of the few powers that scales one damage die per extra pp -and- one point of DC per pp.

Interesting. Might be a typo, tho. It's pretty damn good, for sure (even with normal DC scaling, since 5 targets are often enough - kinda like a 2nd level firebrand ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I take issue with all your facts, they are still open to interpretation and I am not prepared to grant them as is.

Tell me which...

Fact: Psions can almost resemble the sorcerers spellcasting (altho the sorcerer will have some more low level spells then), when they don't augment to the max, but they also have the option to burn their PP quicker for a vastly more devastating effect (high amount of high level manifestations). Sorcerers do not have the latter option. Especially at higher levels, the ability to manifest huge amounts of high level powers is a major asset.

This one is the only one, where I might actually agree (the rest is written black and white in the book pretty much or proven already on this thread). And I think I have stated this careful enough with "almost" and the stuff in parantheses. Also note, that I didn't rate this as major (the major tag is - of course - my personal opinion).

also: One really big thing you've missed with quicken power (and Schism, earlier) is anything that costs PP or lowers effective ML -directly- impacts scalability through augmentation.

I havn't missed that. Even the designers havn't missed that. That's why the metapsionics only cost one effective power level less than equivalent spell level for metamagic feats.

Quickened spells/powers are (almost) always weaker than regular ones, because of the cost to quicken them (spells 4 levels lower than your max have lower caps, too).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Your opinions are very welcome, but you probably cannot deny, that these are facts, which can be proven.

If anything important is amiss (or actually wrong), please point it out.

Bye
Thanee

How long have you been playing with the XPH? And you know for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, to the point that you would stake your life and the lives of your loved ones on these things that they are 100%, undeniably true?

Major Fact: There are more spells than powers to choose from. Also some important powers are only accessible via a feat.

Important powers? Important to who? You? Me? I guess it doesn't matter since it is a fact.

Fact: Metamorphic Transfer is broken like no tomorrow!

This is a fact? So I take it you've playtested it extensivly? I mean, it looks a little powerful to me, but i'm not sure it's broken. But I obviously I'm wrong and MT makes the game unplayable.

Psions get the effect of several metamagic (one general) feats (Eschew Material, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution) for free...

This takes my post in a different direction, but I wanted to comment on it anyway. This line of thinking doesn't really work well. If it did, we'd all be screaming about the fighter being the most powerful class because it gets doezens of feats at first level... Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, etc.

 

[ph0rk]

I'm going make the claim that Psions are balanced with Specialist Wizards.

I make no such claim about Psions and Sorcerors. You can either debate with me whether Psions are balanced with Wizards, or accept my statement and explore whether Sorcerors are balanced w/ Wizards (general or specialist).

Obviously, both cannot be true. Either Psions are balanced with Wizards and Sorcerors are not, or Sorcerors are and Psions are not.

I will no longer discuss any balance issues between Psions and Sorcerors. In my opinion Sorcerors are underpowered.

 

[Thanee]

How long have you been playing with the XPH? And you know for a fact, without a shadow of a doubt, to the point that you would stake your life and the lives of your loved ones on these things that they are 100%, undeniably true?

As I said, prove me wrong. I'll gladly edit anything, that is actually false.

Important powers? Important to who? You? Me? I guess it doesn't matter since it is a fact.

If you don't rate the powers on the discipline lists as important ones, then I don't know... maybe we can find a more suitable term, tho... "especially powerful" maybe?

This is a fact? So I take it you've playtested it extensivly? I mean, it looks a little powerful to me, but i'm not sure it's broken. But I obviously I'm wrong and MT makes the game unplayable.

Have you noticed the smiley?

I think it's very broken, tho. Look up my examples somewhere above.

A feat that allows (for 7 PP and a power manifestation) to use an ability equivalent to three 11 PP manifestations (as just one of hundreds of other possibilities)?

This takes my post in a different direction, but I wanted to comment on it anyway. This line of thinking doesn't really work well. If it did, we'd all be screaming about the fighter being the most powerful class because it gets doezens of feats at first level... Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword, etc.

I never said, that this fact alone made psions overpowered there, I just stated, that it is a fact, that they do get these benefits. I leave the judgement (my own conclusion is included in the summary) to everyone as to how unbalancing this ability is.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I'm going make the claim that Psions are balanced with Specialist Wizards.

That's unfortunately much harder to find out.

I make no such claim about Psions and Sorcerors. You can either debate with me whether Psions are balanced with Wizards, or accept my statement and explore whether Sorcerors are balanced w/ Wizards (general or specialist).

So I take it, that you agree with my assessment (not including a judgement about the psion compared with any other class)?

Obviously, both cannot be true. Either Psions are balanced with Wizards and Sorcerors are not, or Sorcerors are and Psions are not.

Yeah. That's my line of thinking as well. In my experience sorcerers are roughly equal to wizards (slightly less powerful, but not much). But that's really hard to prove, since they are so drastically different in their primary abilities.

I will no longer discuss any balance issues between Psions and Sorcerors. In my opinion Sorcerors are underpowered.

Please note, that I explicitly didn't make a point (at least I hope so ) about whether the problem lies with the psion or with the sorcerer there!

If I was to make a guess, I'd say it lies ~25% on the sorcerer's side and ~75% on the psions side, tho.

Bye
Thanee