Thanee said:
Talking about the sorcerer mainly, as they are easier to compare (spontaneous versus preparation is harder to judge).
Yes, the sorcerer is underpowered by my opinion as well. Saying the psion is more powerful than a sorcerer is like saying a psion is balanced.
Considering, that psions don't really need metapsionics to achieve the same (or similar) results, that's really tough.
Please keep in mind, that psions have the effects of all the following metamagic feats built in their powers for free!
Eschew Materials (ok, general
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Silent Spell
Still Spell
Heighten Spell
4x Energy Substitution (at least in the energy range of powers)
Eschew Materials is mostly a flavor feat and has little effect except in grapples or odd situations. It's a sub-par feat. When a Psion uses concentration to get the benefits of Silent and Still, they must make a concentration check and the arcanist gets them every time he applies them. A psion will probably have a maxed out concentration, as will most casters, so that's a minor drawback. It does mean however on a failed check the power is wasted and the points get spent anyway.
The energy substitution is 'free' for kineticists but applies to only one or two non-kineticists powers. It also applies to only a handful of energy powers anyway. It's of little use to other psions so I'd say it's unfair to say *all* psions get free Energy Substitution four times. That's like saying a wizard who learns Melf's, Fireball and Lightning Bolt has learned Energy Substitution three times. It's similar but not the same.
The free augmentation isn't nearly as good as Heighten, which pretty much everyone agrees is a relatively poor metamagic feat. A heightened magic missle to 5th level (5d4+5, no save) will bust through a Globe of Invulnerability. An augmented crystal shard augmented to 9d6 (no save, but a touch to hit roll) will bounce right off a Globe or Minor Globe.
Empower and Maximize - two of the probably most powerful metamagic feats are also not that much more effective, than a standard augmented power of the same level (including the metamagic modifier, of course). Yes, damage will be lower a bit, but save DC will be higher instead, which is not too bad.
In many but not all cases.
So, your examples says, that the psion is ahead here, right?
And that does not figure in the much higher save DC of the augmented power compared to a 3rd level spell, or does it?
Actually, the other way. The sorcerer gets more bang for the same 'spell slot.' The psion has more options but has spent as many feats.
You are speaking of the wizard who has spent quite a few feats on metamagic, which the psion has not (see above). The same wizard, that has to decide at the morning, where to apply that metamagic, which the psion does not have to. Right?
Right. The Psion has other feats. Psionic Meditation instead of Empower, etc. My comparison was against a wizard because they get comparable numbers of feats to a psion. The sorcerer is clearly weaker because of this lack.
Yeah, the AoO is a notable disadvantage there, but since they don't need metapsionics, it isn't that important here (more when using Power Penetration, for example).
Yes, Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment are critical for punching through spell/power resistance and they require an expended focus. Same for Unconditional Power which Wilders almost *have* to have after about tenth level for when the inevitable wild surge fails. Psions who go the Overchannel + Talented route will need to regain their focus a lot, as will any Psion who does use other metapsionic feats.
Slight nit-pick: Wizard gets Scribe Scroll for free.
Slight nit-pick: And they still get a free familiar. The psion has to blow a feat on what could be argued is a weaker version of a familiar that cannot be raised from the dead and takes a specific power from the Shaper list to repair (non-Shapers will have to expend yet another feat). The Wizard spends 100 gp. Not a fair trade-off, 100 gp for a feat.
I actually think this is not very useful, unless it is done in a plethora of very different examples.
I believe that my technique of comparison - comparing the class mechanics, not single examples - is more accurate, really.
I disagree wholly. Citing theoretical examples ignores the opportunity costs to get there. For example, Metamorphic Transfer, while it seems very powerful at first, ignores what it takes to get there. By building a character 'exploiting' Metamorphic Transfer it becomes apparent that entire schools of power get ignored. Only Egoists gain the ability early enough to qualify as 'abusive' by taking it at fifth level.
What does the Egoist give up? All the other discipline powers except maybe 1. He has to take the feat with either his 5th level bonus feat, his 6th level class feat, or his 9th or 10th level feat. If he takes it at 5th or 6th, then he doesn't actually get any benefit from the feat until 7th level when he finally acquires Metamorphasis. How often does a character take a feat that has absolutely no practical benefit for at least one and probably two levels? Almost never.
Meanwhile we build a non-specialist wizard (or at least one who doesn't have conjuration banned). For one of his 7th level powers he takes Summon Monster IV. With the summoned monsters his list of supernatural abilites is massive.
Just from SM4 he gets: Aura of Menace, Magic Circle Against, Aid,
Detect Evil, Continual Flame, Burrow, Fiery Aura, Melt Weapons, See in Darkness, Detect Good, Detect Magic, Suggestion,
Commune, Cone of Fire, and a Varguille's Shriek. This doesn't even include all the goodies from getting lower level meat shields. Almost all these abilites are useable once per round for 7 rounds per casting. All without expending a single feat.
Greg
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