[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

Eschew Materials is mostly a flavor feat and has little effect except in grapples or odd situations. It's a sub-par feat.

Granted. Nothing major.

When a Psion uses concentration to get the benefits of Silent and Still, they must make a concentration check and the arcanist gets them every time he applies them.

Are you speaking of displays here? I don't speak of display. Wizards cannot hide the "displays" of their spells at all (audible, visible). Many spells do not have "displays", tho, which kinda balances this.

I'm speaking of the complete absence of verbal and somatic components!

The energy substitution is 'free' for kineticists but applies to only one or two non-kineticists powers.

Energy Substitution in general only applies to "energy" type spells. Of course it's best for the kineticist, but even only one such power grants the complete flexibility (which is huge - it's roughly five powers in one this way - or one power + four feats)!

The free augmentation isn't nearly as good as Heighten, which pretty much everyone agrees is a relatively poor metamagic feat.

Most people I know, that play sorcerers consider this feat highly powerful (for sorcerers only, tho).

Slight nit-pick: And they still get a free familiar.

Just meant, that the bonus feat is obviously the substitute for the removed psicrystal ability (which is a feat now). It's surely meant that way (judging from where it originated from), but will work either way, of course.

I disagree wholly. Citing theoretical examples ignores the opportunity costs to get there.

I don't cite examples, except to illustrate a point. That's what I meant. I compare class fundamentals that apply to all scenarios not possible scenarios. A more generic comparison, instead of rather specific, so to say.

For example, Metamorphic Transfer, while it seems very powerful at first, ignores what it takes to get there. By building a character 'exploiting' Metamorphic Transfer it becomes apparent that entire schools of power get ignored. Only Egoists gain the ability early enough to qualify as 'abusive' by taking it at fifth level.

This is wrong. You need exactly two feats (Expanded Knowledge, Metamorphic Transfer) for this. The cost of two feats is ridiculously low for the abilities gained.

With the summoned monsters his list of supernatural abilites is massive.

Massive? A list of a few dozen (usually underpowered compared to the level when you get them) creatures, doesn't really compare to the complete range of monsters from all monster books out there. Not even close!

And it's quite a difference, if a summoned creature has it, or you have it.

Anyways, summon monster surely adds a lot of versatility, but the stuff you get at the level when you get it, is surely not as bad as what you can do with MT.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The main drawback I see to Psions is their lack of variety in the powers they get. A wizard can have protective spells, mental domination spells, direct damage spells, movement spells, summon spells, and a variety of utility spells.

Yep, that's what I think as well (comparing to wizard or sorcerer, both work here).

Psions get inferior versions of most of these, and equivalent versions of a select few (in their discipline).

I do not agree here, tho. Powers are not inferior most of the time. Some are for sure, but most are not IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

(Though they may need a pack animal to carry their library )

Heward's Handy Haversack or Boccob's Blessed Book (HHH / BBB ) both work fine!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

As has been previously mentioned most of the psions spells are self.

Yep. I also stated this.

My current DM plays an 10th level sorcerer in another campaign and is the most powerful party member by miles.

That might be linked to the other party members, tho. But I don't say, that the sorcerer is weak (not so much as most others think he is), just a slight bit behind the wizard.

Also, Thanee I cannot believe how dismissive you are of the arcane spells that a sorcerer has a choice of, even if it only 3 at 20th.

Dismissive? *blink*

I am quite certain, that I always stated this as the psions biggest disadvantage (the weaker power selection)!

However, since the sorcerer has only so few spells of each level, the actual versatility in the end is not so much ahead of the psion (unlike the wizard, who can fully utilize this arcane bonus). Both will pick many standard spells/powers and only few others normally.

Maybe exps are given away like confeti in your campaigns but exps are not in mine(hence why I am still 10th.) It is far easier to gain money.

Nah, neither xp nor gold is given in excessive amounts. But I know how much some of the material costs (i.e. Stoneskin) hurt. If Stoneskin had an equivalent xp cost, I would consider this spell for a sorcerer, with the 250gp I am not.

I apologise if I am sounding a little bit cynical but I do not see that at powerful levels the sorcerer is that much disadvantaged, if at all. As a player character he is a much more useful party member, with his movement abilities, his buffing abilities, his offensive abilities and his interesting esoteric spells that get the party through the next stage of their adventure.

You mainly just state stuff I have written above already (as psion disadvantages).

If there is a criticism of the psion it is the powers are too orientated to the self...

In 3.0 there was a feat or power which allowed to use personal powers on others... don't remember the name, tho. Is this still in existance?

One final point - the thread starts with psions vs sorcerers vs wizards. I gather Thanee that psions are not more powerful than wizards as you do not mention them much in your statements after the first page. Maybe they are not that too over the top.

I don't mention wizards much, since they are so much harder to compare, because of the completely different way they use spells.

My line of reasoning is, that the sorcerer is underpowered compared to the psion. My experience is, that the sorcerer is not so much underpowered compared to the wizard. The conclusion (to me) is, that psions are a bit more powerful than wizards, which they (IMHO) shouldn't be. That's, of course, only my experience and opinion.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kalanyr]

A Wizard's "immense" spell repetoire isn't what people are making out, a Wizard with a repertoire ,twice that of a sorceror say, will be pretty much broke if he follows the standard GP per level distributions.

 

[Camarath]

Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the "pushing 400" above?

Thanee how would you mind explaning to me how this would be done?

 

[Thanee]

With 216 unaugmented Energy Missiles.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Camarath]

With 216 unaugmented Energy Missiles.

Bye
Thanee

If you count the damage for each of the upto 5 target within 15ft as seperate damage. If one does the same with area spells one would also get very high damage numbers. A similar calculation using a Sorc and Fireball yields 22880d6 damage just using 3rd and up spells with no metamagic augmentation.

 

[Spatula]

If there is a criticism of the psion it is the powers are too orientated to the self and does not allow for much character development

Personal-only powers = no character development? You'll have to explain that one to me.

In 3.0 there was a feat or power which allowed to use personal powers on others... don't remember the name, tho. Is this still in existance?

What feat or power is that? There's a metamagic feat that turns a touch spell into a ranged touch spell, but that's hardly the same thing. I've never seen any printed material that allows a caster or manifester to use personal-range spells/powers on others (aside from sharing spells with familiars/psicrystals).

 

[reiella]

Crystallize (shaper 6) is the psionic equivalent of Flesh to Stone.

Very much not the case.

Crystallize can only be 'cured' by Dispel Psionics [and arguably Dispel Magic in a transparent world]. However, that does kinda make it "Easier" to deal with on the fly than a Flesh to Stone effect. After all, you're alot more likly to have Dispel Psionics/Magic available than Stone to Flesh .

Blindsight is in PGtF.

Once I hit upon a nice realization and some numbers [ran very long ago in this thread], it didn't seem to upset me/frustrate me as much. The Psion with Energy Ball would typically outperform the Sorcerer in damage output. A kineticist typically would as well, although the difference is "fairly" minor [in my opinion at least]. Psions have a few fewer selection area suppression spells, and nothing in my opinion equal to Horrid Wilting [mostly a "minor" distinction, in my opinion].

Fun sidenote : While converting my 3.0 high level Psion NPCs over, I tended to 'have' to use my higher level power slots for some 'better' lower level utility power.

Other fun note : Erm, Psions -CANNOT- restore their psicrystal if it's lost with the RAW. Period. That's somewhat major depending on the campaign. The Crystal itself it gained by a feat.

Thanee, metapsionic costs 2pp less not because of the lowered effective caster level... It costs less because of the expenditure of psionic focus. Designer said as much when justifying why Extend Power does not share the same cost benefit.

I'm quickly approaching the belief that a spell-slot spellcaster cannot be fairly compared against a point-based spellcaster, and it's a far more drastic difference than Spontaneous versus Non-Spontaneous spellcasters.

Of course, I think that the UA spontaneous spellcasters are a bit on the weak side.

Metamorphic Transfer reminds me of some Wild Feats to be honest, and also seem like they'd be more useful to a Wilder [with expanded knowledge? gah I dunno now ;P] due to the Charisma stat base.

Quick Reminder about those Psi Focus feats : You automatically lose your focus if you ever hit 0 Power Points. This will more so be a problem for low level psions [and psy warriors who have trouble diversifying their ability portfolio].

And the feat Thanee is thinking of is "Scribe Tatoo" or Brew Potion .