As on a one by one basis?
Of course not, that's pointless. The comparison is all psionic versus a similar amount of magic spells (there are more magic spells, but that is covered elsewhere). And the main part of this comparison is the mechanics, which are obviously quite different, especially the scaling (huge disadvantage for psions) versus caps and much, much lower flexibility (huge disadvantage for spellcasters).
I am assuming you mean 3.5 spells. Since many 3.5 spells have been nerfed into uselessness then I will take this as a Bad Thing (tm).
So you compare 3.5 psionics with 3.0 arcana?
Psions are, by their very nature, specialists.
More than spellcasters, but not so much more than a sorcerer normally. There selection of powers is quite broad, too, even tho not as broad as what the sorcerer can pick from, of course.
Mainly it seems like the psonic powers are pretty close (at the very base levels, when they are first recieved) but are much worse in certain areas most of the time, while not really excelling in other areas.
Could you make some examples or somehow elaborate what you mean?
Especially since arcane types have a huge selection to choose from, and therefore automatically have the chance of getting spells that are just plain better than the psionic counterparts.
If there is a psionic counterpart, this will be kinda hard to find one that is "just plain better", I suppose. I havn't seen many powers yet, that don't easily live up to their arcane counterparts (if augmented properly, which has a higher cost, of course, but that is the price for the added flexibility, can't look at the disadvantages without the advantages).
I dont agree with this in the way that you are presenting it however. Generally an arcane spell of lower levels will be much more durable in a few ways than the psionic spell manifested unaugmented.
Of course, but you can (again) not compare it this way.
After all, once you start augementing then it isnt a spell of the same level anymore and the comparison changes.
It still is a power of the same level, it just costs more PP to manifest. I'm very much aware of this fact.
Also, I labeled this "Assumption" for a good reason, as this is surely not easily proven.
It has nothing to do with the items to follow, tho.
The cost to augment is an inherent part of the way psionic powers work.
This does give the psion an advantage over the sorc in some ways, and a huge detriment in others.
That's the point to be proven... how much of an advantage it is versus how much of a disadvantage. Flexibility comes at a price, you can't have more flexibility and equal power, that's not going to work.
Given the vastness of the number of spells that a sorc can cast in comparison, along with the above, the versitility vs power issue is hard, but I would still point well in favor of the sorc for this one.
The vastness of spells is covered in the psions main disadvantage already.
Lots more spells to choose from. Having to pay a feat to gain an extra power isnt an issue here, it does not help the fact that there are many more spells than powers.
It's not really meant as an advantage...
In other words this is two facts, one of which muddies the other.
I think it is very much the same... the point here is, that the psion has much fewer powers to choose from, and the discipline powers of other disciplines (which count to the lower power base) can only be picked by the feat equivalent of "extra spell", which the sorcerer can choose. So, while it certainly makes the feat better in comparison (allows access to other powers plus the normal uses), it makes their power base even worse, so this is meant to enhance the first, not take away from it.
The second line has no real bearing at all however, as the sorc/wiz have effectively the exact same feat at their disposal. So just kill the second misleading line, and keep the first. Which points towards the arcane counterpart winning by a large margin.
See above.
It's certainly not meant that way... I'll see if I can make it clearer, tho.
An incredible drawback believe me ;/ The psion can boost himself, but most of the time he doesnt want to use those boosts as they will make him have to get up close and personal. Or their durations are just too short to matter, but this is a problem for both caster types.
Not speaking of the general nature of spellcasters, but of spells that work on others, where powers do not. It is a disadvantage, but surely not an incredible one, once you take away the part sorcerers have, too.
And again, if I have forgotten anything (never said, this is a finite list), please point it out.
on an immediate, short term basis? yes.
No, all the time (cept the very first levels).
But the sorc gets to use his spells a total of many more times per day.
Irrelevant to this point. This is only about how many of those they can choose to do, not how often. And you surely don't want to say, that sorcerers can cast their high level spells more often than psions can manifest their high level powers, because that is obviously false.
Sorcerers can - in total - cast more spells per day than psions can manifest powers, yes.
But the ones they get in addition are only low level ones then and that certainly balances the aspect, that psions get to manifest more high level ones that have a higher impact.
I'll get back to this later, as it is meant to be covered in another item, actually.
That is one of the tradeoff points. Kindof like with the bard, they get a good amount of spells, but cant cast all of them.
This is especially true with bonus spells, psions get a whole lot less bonus spells for a high stat. The sorc gets an incredible amount.
A whole lot less? Not really.
So psion = more powers known sometimes, able to cast the higher level ones a few more times but then have nothing left over.
Yeah. That "A few more times" can be quite often, tho. IF the psion manifests all powers at maximum level. That's surely a quick way to burn through one's PP/ day. I quite efficient way in having much effect in short time, but quite inefficient in having spread ones power over a longer time frame. They
can do the latter, too, the sorcerer cannot do the first. But again, that's another item in the list.
When the sorc can cast double the amount of 'pp' per day as the psion they should have to give up something for that huge amount of extra power yes?
For just 5th - 9th, with no bonus spells yet, the sorc has the equivalent of 390 pp, and all of those scale for free. The psion only has 343.
Assuming a prime stat of 30 (not unreasonable at all), the psion gets a bonus of 100 pp. The sorc gets the equivalent of 121 bonus pp. For each extra +2 the psion gets an extra 10 pp, for each extra 2 the sorc gets a minimum of much, much more.
Yes, the sorcerer can cast more spells per day, already said so.
And you can't just translate spell slots into PP / day, there are many other factors to consider (see above) as a whole.
And what has this to do with spells/powers known, anyways?
The extra '3 - 4x' as many spells known simply comes from the delayed progression of the sorc.
That is true, but doesn't make this any less valid. It's a comparison between sorcerer and psion after all.
BTW, you didn't complain - like above - that I have stated two facts in one here. 1) psions geht higher level powers quicker (1 level earlier) 2) psions have much more of them at pretty much every level.
Now, many people, including myself, dont understand why the sorc even has this delayed progression. So that is a major problem for them, but just because that is a problem that should be fixed does not mean that the psion should be held to the same bad standard.
For you too... Note, that I deliberately do not state in this comparison as to why the problem lies with the sorcerer or with the psion, just point out, that the problem exists (in a rather large scale IMHO).
Yes, I have an opinion about this subject, and yes I do think the problem lies more on the psion side than on the sorcerer side (rough estimate 75% to 25%).
The psion does still have displays however, ...
Spells have those, too. Or do you want to say, that a fireball is not visible/audible, for example?
Plus, a good amount of powers require exp instead of the very easy to get components or focuses.
Very easy to get... Have you ever noticed how expensive some of that stuff can be? I'd actually more than happily pay 25-50xp for Stoneskin instead of 250gp! Would make the spell much more useful to me. Not that the equivalent power even has a cost, but it has a reduced effect to compensate. But I am aware, that most people have a huge objection towards spending xp. Their loss.
Yes xp is a tough cost. I won't play this down, but it's fair enough compared with gp, which you do not have in unlimited amounts either. Both are limited resources, which are easily regained over time.
That is an incredibly huge penalty.
That's a matter of perception.
If we are going to count feats as such though then the sorc has a 'ton' more feats than the psion. After all, sorcs know all simple weapons.
Let's stay with actually useful feats.
Or do you actually want to compare the usefulness of WP: Sickle with Energy Substitution for a spellcaster?
Plus, since only spells with somatic components are effected by spell failure anyway, you could make a sorc who doesnt have to worry about armor at all.
At a cost, yes.
Effectively having the exact same 'bonus' as the psion, guess the sorc actually has a few of these virtual feats after all.
Not at all. The psion has this for exactly all powers he knows at no cost.
Along with psionic focus expenditure being the most horrible thing since moldy bread. Intersting idea, bad implementation.
Agreed.
It only achieves that some stuff simply won't be used at all (no major disadvantage, since psions don't need any of that stuff, like most metapsionics (get most important ones for free or equivalent effects, anyways) or Psionic Endowment (use Psionatrix instead)). I don't really like that mechanic either.
And only specific powers have augementation, and the ones that do only have a very minor amount of augmentation.
Now that's just completely false. Most powers that need scaling have uncapped augmentation (only limit is the manifester level) and the effect is very much
not minor.
It is the costly, and limited, form of scaling.
Which is left out here for a good reason and covered above instead.
To recap, the issues with scaling and augmentation have advantages and disadvantages for both types of casters which (IMHO) are pretty much balanced to each other (the above assumption).
If your sorc picks up feat X he gets to use it wherever he wants, but the psion doesnt get anywhere near that latitude with his choices, it is merely yet another cost to be paid to try to keep up with the sorc.
How many powers do you know, which the abovementioned metamagic feats would be applicable to, but are not automatically included?
Examples would be good.
True enough, but try to get wotc to give a good reason why they cant and mostly all you get is sputtering. Once again, taking design flaws of the sorc and trying to make the psion live up to them as well (or down to them) is just a bad move. Better is to try to get things straightened out properly for the sorc, as he should be able to do it as well.
See above.
More flexibility? Depends on how you look at it I suppose.
A psion can use his PP spread in any way he chooses, the sorcerer can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells, that's it.
... This isnt always universally true of course, but it is true enough to counter the 'fact'.
It actually has nothing to do with this fact. It's about flexibility (and only flexibility), not scaling or power or number of spells/powers per day.
As I have shown above this isnt exactly true, the sorc, when his spells are converted to pp, is way ahead.
Shown?
Converting spells to PP doesn't show much, as I have already stated, since it neglects important parts of the whole spell-power-equation (my above a ssumption).
Anyways...
That's something where I can partially agree with, actually. Your comparison leaves important facts out, tho, so it's not very accurate, but still, and I have said so already and also listed it in the statement of this fact, sorcerers have more spells per day than psions have powers per day - given a somewhat natural use of them (that is augmenting most of their powers some but not to the max, preserving some of their vast power for later this way, instead of burning through all their PP quickly - which is extremely powerful, but only for a short while).
I might add this difference (spells per day versus powers per day) as a seperate fact, tho, to make it more clear.
So much so that it isnt even funny
See below, if you want to see how funny...
On another board someone compared the total amount of damage dice each was able to do in a given day at high level with a good stat. The psion was at around 180 and the sorc was pushing 400. So if all you care about is sheer damage potential the sorc wins out against two psions of the same level!
Now - going into silly mode for a moment - if psions do not use their powers in a reasonably natural way as stated above (that is augmenting most of their powers to a degree, but not to max), but instead simply go for maximum damage dice, they could (just one example off the top of my head) at 20th level (28 Int) do 3280d6+3280 of damage in a single day (trigger items not included, of course)! How does that compare to the "pushing 400" above?
So
obviously Psions are 8 times as powerful as sorcerers!
Wait, another example (using Metamorphic Transfer)... a 20th level psion can turn 216 targets to stone in a day, with the DC of a 10th level spell (using Cha, tho - but at that level you can have a high Cha in addition to a high Int, if you want to). That's the equivalent of 216 heightened 6th level spells! A sorcerer can do this roughly 30 times a day at that level (not heightened, of course, or only partially).
As I said elsewhere, silly examples don't mean anything... *leaving silly mode*
And while it is silly and completely unreasonable it still somewhat shows how much flexibility the psion has.
better skills? one can only hope! the sorc gets it pretty royally here, although he still beats out the fighter.
Yep. Though, all casters have this (cept the druid). The advantage is only minor, after all, tho.
The sorc does really need to get a couple of feats here and there, but again, that is a problem with the sorc. The psion should get the feats, so perhaps you should be saying that the sorc needs the boost, not that the psion needs to be pulled down?
I havn't said either in the comparison.
Havent seen it in action, it looks nice, but broken? We shall see as time goes on, for now.. who knows? It might be too campaign dependent to mean anything.
The examples I stated already make it broken, and those are three out of hundreds of possibilities. Anyways, this is - as said above - only meant as a fun comment (even tho it certainly has some truth to it, it's not really important in the comparison how broken a single feat is).
My responses about things to change makes this more true
Your responses are not very accurate. Most of the time you state stuff that is covered elsewhere, instead of keeping focused on the actual fact presented.
This however is a huge leap.
Not for me. But it's my opinion stated there, not a fact. It's - of course - open to discussion.
The psion gets to use metamagic faster, but the sorc still does it 'much' better.
LOL !?
What metamagic is better for the sorcerer?
And don't forget to figure in Psionic Meditation here (as a bonus feat, so no actual cost compared to the sorcerer)!
Having to expend focus, and the incredible difficulty in getting it back, is a huge limiting factor for the psion.
A move action is an "incredible difficulty" and a "huge limiting factor"?
Let's see...
Sorcerer - full-round action
Psion - standard action + move action
Notice a pattern?
Furthermore...
Psion - gets use of many, very good metamagic feats for free!
I fail to see the advantage of the sorcerer here! Enlighten me, please!
Plus having to spend so many points to keep their powers up to par in useage.
You always state this, at pretty much every opportunity. How about trying some other arguments. This one has been stated often enough by now, don't you think? Especially since you always leave out the advantages that are bound to this.
Overall I think the new psion is a pretty decent improvement.
Definitely, a huge improvement over the PsiHB 3.0 version, I'm inclined to say.
The sorc though has always needed a lot of help, not so much in the power department so much as in the versitility and interesting department.
That's undeniable. Compared to the psion they highly lack in power as well, tho.
This whole thread seems to boil down to, 'sorcs really suck, so lets make every other caster suck too!'.
I don't see where I have said this in my comparison. In fact, I have stated, that in my opinion sorcerers are not that much behind wizards (and other casters), just psions. It's true, that I am of the opinion, that psions are overpowered, altho this comparison does not state this in any way (only in relation to the sorcerer).
Arcane magic in general took a lot of major, and most unwarrented, hits in 3.5 and psionics followed suit. They have already taken enough hits for the team, time for them to get some boosts anyway.
Psionics have taken some hits (similar to arcane magic), that's true. However, based on the quite formidable 3.0 Psion (including the ITCK / MS rules here, not the base PsiBH one, which most certainly wasn't formidable at all) they also included a multitude of advantages over that one (many of those are listed in my comparison). Arcane casters have not been granted those (beyond some minor stuff like spell swapping for sorcerers or one additional class skill).
Bye
Thanee
)
