[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Ashrem Bayle]

Lots of good stuff...

Thanks, that's what I've been trying to say. In my opinion, psions and specialty wizards are balanced. Each have their advantages and you can use those advantages against the other's weaknesses all day to try to prove your point. They're balanced, just different. Apples and oranges.

On the other hand, I still feel sorcerers are weaker than wizards (and psions). It wouldn't take much, maybe just a few feats or more skill points, to bump them up with the others.

And what is it that makes an Evoker better than, say, a Diviner in evocation?

 

[ph0rk]

You want to start trading insults? I’ll be more than happy to oblige.

Not really, my point was your things a psion was 'better at' were relatively trivial. If you want to keep up though, go ahead.

 

[ph0rk]

>>Find me an ability that a wizard can't do (or a sorceror for that matter) within a level of when an egoist could do it with this feat and power, then we'll talk.

See above. Flesh to Stone. And it's really not one ability I'm worried about, but the fact, that this feat literally grants HUNDREDS of those abilities!!!

Technically a wizard could cast that much earlier with a scroll. (as could a scorceror). Granted, thats a spell a wizard can't actually cast, but they can certainly make use of it otherwise.

I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use. It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.

The other bit is, how is a Psion going to assume the form of a creature he or she has never seen or read about? If they don't exist in a certain world, it'd be even harder!

>>> What? have you even read what the psionic dominate is like?

Yes, I have. You obviously have not.


Just so you know, too, psions CAN change the duration to minutes, hours or even days instead of concentration! Has been clarified already and will be in the upcoming errata.

I have heard that, and it ain't published yet, now is it?

Well, I am going from the sorcerer, that doesn't have bonus feats and that has to burn feats on metamagic. Psions don't need that. So yes, they have enough feats for Expanded Knowledge, and I'm quite sure you will see the feat quite often on a psion character sheet as well.

Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?

My point is that you -must- use expanded knowledge to gain some of the powers that mimic relatively common spells. Fly, Dominate, Energy Ball, Metamorphasis - all these are list powers and require feats to attain. On top of that you can't even learn them with a feat until you can manifest powers one level higher.

Have you made a mid or high level psion and really thought about what abilities you'd actually like to have, and what you had to do to get them?

I said the sorcerer is well-balanced with the psion, yes.
I have never said, that the wizard is. In fact, I think he is not (like the sorcerer).

Is that what you meant to say?

----

This discussion has obviously descended to minutae; we can debate specific powers vs specific spells for days and days. Apparently a small few people beleive that Psions are unstoppable; so be it. I'm not here to change your mind. I don't believe they are. Yes they do things differenly than Arcanists, because they aren't arcanists. In my opinion, it would have been pretty stupid if they published a book that contained nothing but a glorified spell-point system and arcane spells.

Item creation, sure... how many more than one of those feats you really want?

To some, thats what playing a caster is all about.

Wondrous items (for you and your party)
Magic arms and Armor (for the meat shields)
Craft Dorje (same reason a Wizard would; extra nuking when in a tight spot. Or a self-only healing stick)

The first two are ones I'd definately want.

for the record, if a psion is to use Expanded Knowledge to gain new powers, these are the max level powers he or she can gain, and what level they can be gained at:

1st (level 3 feat)
2nd (level 5 class feat)
2nd (level 6 feat)
4th (level 9 feat)
4th (level 10 class feat)
5th (level 12 feat)
7th (level 15 feat)
7th (level 15 class feat)
8th (level 18 feat)
8th (level 20 class feat)

That is the maximum number of powers a Psion is able to pick up with Expanded Knowledge. Obviously they aren't getting many other feats (2 at character creation +1 if human).


There are a number of anti-Psion feats in the book that require no psionic ability; and in many cases they apply only to psionics, not arcane of divine magic.


Yes, Psions are powerful. Wizards are too. And so are Clerics. And Ninjas.

None of them are more powerful than the DM using his wand of rule 0 though.

(No, Sorcerors are not REAL ULTIMATE POWER)

sidebar: I really think Sorcerors need eaither more feats or 4 or 6 skill points to make them more in line with all the other various casters.

 

[Spatula]

Who would learn such stuff, unless you are some kind of psion-hunter (not very common) you won't, because of the extremely limited applications. Simple as that.

What are you talking about? Brain Lock & Ecto Coccoon are the psionic versions of Hold Person. Both powers stop the target from acting, they're not specifically anti-psion powers. Brain Lock stops mental actions, which stops not only psions but spell-like abilities as well. Even if the target has none of these, it still can't do anything else. Ecto Coccoon doesn't stop mental actions but it stops movement, blocks line of effect, and is immune to dispelling. Why is the use of these powers so "extremely limited"?

 

[Spatula]

I -believe- this is the only way a Psion can use that ability, and it does cost 2 feats plue 9 power points per use. It isn't as if they can become a Djinn or anything.

Crystallize (shaper 6) is the psionic equivalent of Flesh to Stone.

 

[Spatula]

You really have nerves... the advantage here is, that the wizard needs those two feats (and actually have them applied, too), three actually (Eschew Materials), the psion gets it for free!

Two feats. Neither Dispel Magic nor Mage Hand have a material component.

 

[James McMurray]

Only needs to be long enough to either finish the battle, escape the battle, or effect a cure. The psion doesn't suffer the immediate debilitation of being unable to target the enemy.

Blindsight: second level sor/wiz spell. Synesthete and Touch Sight are just psionically flavored versions of this.

Congratulations. One’s a second level power, one’s a ninth level spell. Hmm, if we cut out chaotic creatures we’d cut out maybe half of what Gate can do. Think that’d make for a balanced second level spell? Or maybe if we limited miracle to replicating cleric spells only. That’s surely not worth a 3rd level slot!

Foresight is hardly a good spell, especially at 9th level, unless your DM interprets it very loosely. I haven't seen Detect Hostile Intent, so I don't know how it compares. Is it like the other detection spells in that it has a concentration duration?

I do agree that the ability to easily manifest while grappled is a big benefit for psions, but I don't think it makes them broken. Unconditional Power requires +8 power points. An equivilent version could be extrapolated for wizards that costs +5 spell levels. Unconditional Power is nice, but its mainly for BBEGs in my opinion. Its way too situational for my tastes as a PC, at least until a very late level, and at that point you've got your cleric buddy to remove those conditions for you.

It's quite a different thing entirely to reason that the power to create or destroy the world is balanced merely because you can only use it once per day.

I haven't read the whole thread. Did somebody actually say that?

have only looked that up quickly... what's so bad about the wilder? The automatic augmentation seems pretty fair (it's only the couple bonus augmentations and at a risk as well; he still has to augment normally, if I get this right). And they have severe limits (i.e. really, really few powers). But as I said, I havn't checked the class in detail.

The Wilder is a psionic version of an adept with a few cute addons. Most of what it does can be mimcked by a psion without any risk of removing yourself from the batle for a full round by dazing yourself. What few perks it has compared to a psion don't make up for the lack of powers known and bonus feats. I'm in the process of starting up an all psion campaign and the only class that will not be represented is the Wilder, because his bonuses in no way make up for his penalties.

 

[Shadowdweller]

@James McMurray:

Blindsight: second level sor/wiz spell. Synesthete and Touch Sight are just psionically flavored versions of this.

I was under the impression that there wasn't any sort of core blindsight spell. Where's it from, anyway? I may have seen something like this way back when, but I'm all but positive it was of a considerably higher level (seeing as how Darkvision is a second level arcane spell).

Foresight is hardly a good spell, especially at 9th level, unless your DM interprets it very loosely. I haven't seen Detect Hostile Intent, so I don't know how it compares. Is it like the other detection spells in that it has a concentration duration?

10 min/level and the part about not being surprised or flatfooted is directly stated without being linked to range. (Which makes a hyperliteralist interpretation very potent, although the general intent probably IS that it won't protect from creatures outside of range surprising you).

I haven't read the whole thread. Did somebody actually say that?

An exaggeration of some previous lines of reasoning.

Unconditional Power requires +8 power points.

That's true, it's pretty costly. I suppose it's the concept of being able to manifest while confused that offends me.

@Dinkeldog:
There's a subtle, but very critical difference between this example:

I also don't care for arguments like "a psion will never be sneak attacked because of power XXX" with an assumption that every psions will have that power.

and my thesis:

Perhaps what concerns me most about psionics is that psions are nearly impervious to the classic checks and balances upon arcane casters or at least can easily be made so:

Then again, it's not for me to say whether or not you're making a (mostly/partially) unrelated generalization.

@phork:

Not really, my point was your things a psion was 'better at' were relatively trivial.

That's funny. Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.

 

[ph0rk]

I do agree that the ability to easily manifest while grappled is a big benefit for psions, but I don't think it makes them broken.

Anyone can cast while grappled (or pinned), the concentration DC is 20. Granted the spell must not have a somatic component, but this can be got around with still spell, and is little different than discussing a wizard in chains. (And if its a comperable level monk, the wizard might as well be in chains )

There is then of course another check to see if the caster/manifester provokes an AOO.

What you choose to cast to get out is your call.

 

[ph0rk]

@James McMurray:
@phork:
That's funny. Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.

Your examples were cherry-picked. You are implying that every single Psion will have those abilities, which just isn't so. It is about as impractical for a wizard to do all of those things as it is for a Psion. (And I saw detect hostile intent as an anti-sneak attack power; I didn't get the impression that it prevented the Psion from being caught flat footed from enemies farther away than 30') I'd bet they wanted that particular power to mimic Uncanny Dodge; they may fix with an errata, but even as is the power wouldn't be worth it to me to take. (And you can't really keep it up all day long easily until agter 6th level or so; it takes 28 casts at 3rd level for a 14 hour day, 14 at 6th, 7 casts at 12. Thats still going to be 36 PP at level 12)


The only thing that in my mind isn't easily replicatable is Fiery Discorporation, but all that does is allow the psion to leave while the party dies, assuming a TPK and a fire close by. On the other hand if the Psion is the BBEG, thats just the sort of ability a BBEG -should- have. It's big bad evil guy, not standard bad evil guy

We can pick out powers and spells that don't seem balanced all day long, but as I said earlier, if we've gotted down to discussing balance in terms of powers or spells chosen we'll be here forever.

That's funny. Because what I saw was a list of strategic misinterpretations or highly impractical and inefficient means by which an arcane caster might sort of accomplish the same thing.

But they can. Wizards must plan ahead; Psions don't have to. If the wizard didn't plan ahead, too bad for them.