[XPH] Psion versus Wizard/Sorcerer

[Thanee]

I think the thing is when comparing wiz/sor to a psion you can't just look at the # of 9th level effects a psion will be throwing and compare it to the wiz/sor.

Of course you cannot do that, it was just an example.

The wiz/sor effects thanks to scaling of 7,8,9 will in effect be roughly equivelent to those psion 9th level effects. So the sorcerer will likely be throwing 20 of those level of effects and still have a wide assortment of effects from the lower levels many of which again thanks to scaling will be effective in an encounter.

That's not exactly correct. 9th level powers/spells are (far) more potent than 6th - 8th level ones. Of course, with the limited selection psions will also use some augmented lower level powers.

Also at the lower levels it looks worse for the psion at level 10 for example IIRC a psion with a 18ish in a stat would throw about 10 effects costing 10PP.

Probably one more, since stat will be higher (+4 headband), but yeah, otherwise they can manifest about as many powers as wizards and sorcerers can cast spells of their higher levels.

And he can also manifest tons of lower level powers, which do not need maximum augmentation (and not all do, I only assumed maximum augmentation in my example to get the minimum advantage).

The one area I think they screwed up in balance was the bonus PP for an attribute. They should of just translated bonus spells over to bonus PP. They almost do it at the levels up to the point where the spell level bonus would stop. For example if you got +1 1st,2nd and 3rd level effect. Up to 5th level the PP gained are roughly the same benefit. Unfortunately the PP gain continues past 5th level which it wont for the spells.

That actually doesn't worry me too much, even though you are probably right, it won't make such a big difference in the end.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Particle_Man]

would human be overall the best race to be? for my stat points i have two 17's and four 16's. I think im gonna be pretty well balanced so I was just wondering what would be the best way to build a good char. now do i get kineticist spells and any spell that has psion/xxxx type of psion?

See if you can get your DM to let you play a Blue (in the back of the book, probably LA +0, although the text contradicts itself). You get a +2 bonus to INT, as well as a free power point. And you are small, but get a move of 30, and get darkvision to boot.

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, but you're a goblin and everyone will hate you.

I'd go for Elan, forget that first talent feat and enjoy my insta saving throw save ability.

 

[Thanee]

Hey Deetz, why don't you simply make a new thread about that. Your question is not really on topic anyways and you will also get more responses that way, I'm pretty sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[ph0rk]

comparing with both wizards and sorcerors:

- quicker access to higher power levels

These are still extremely expensive in power points; for example a 5th level psion with an int of 18 (possible w/ most point buy systems) has 35 power points. A 3rd level power costs 5, so yes, they can cast 7 3rd level spells per day.

but: thats it. bammo, no more, all gone. An unwise psion can blow that in one combat, or two. It is -very- possible to have 4+ combats per game day; and the psion is pretty worthless in those additional combats, due to the player unwisely burning their points too quickly. If the campaign is more fluffy and has only one combat per day, then all casters will be topheavy anyway.

- even higher flexibility

Yes and no; they are more flexible but with a limit. A sorceror for example will always know more total spells/vs powers by level, and with smart metamagic feat selections, the sorcerors spells can scale much like a psion's powers.

both can use wands, etc, but wizards can actually know a great deal of spells.

psions have an ability to use their power points to use the power in a stone, (psionic equiv of a scroll) but it takes 3 full-round psicraft checks of 15+spell level, and if the third fails, they are unable to use the stone in this way for a full day. Not exactly handy in combat

- higher flexibility when choosing powers known

yes, this is a class feature.

- a lot more high level powers known at all levels

Not without a lack of lower level powers; wheras a wizard can learn a great deal of 7-9th level spells with no penalty to their lower level capacity; sorcerors end up with more total spells known, and bear in mind psions can's save up their discovered powers until later or replace ones they don't like as a sorceror can. (I believe).

- bonus feats

wizards get these, I think sorcerors should too.

Now metapsionics might be an issue, as this is something the sorcerer stands out at. Psions surely have harsh limits when it comes to applying metapsionics (psionic focus). Granted. Altho, ones you pick up Psionic Meditation (remember the bonus feats), it's basically the same as for the sorcerer.

No, they still must make the concentration check to gain focus (yes it is a move action) and this provokes an AOO

But don't forget, that effectively, psions automatically get the effects of Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution/Affinity und Quicken Spell without any feats necessary (Quicken Spell --> Schism is pretty much the same - ok it's a power, but still - furthermore, it allows an effect similar to spontaneous application of Quicken Spell, something the game designers have taken great care to disallow in the core rules!). The psion will probably learn no more than one metapsionic power (i.e. Maximize) and use it once (or only a few times) per combat. Still not too bad and combined with the above, hardly a disadvantage at all. Schism alone is a huge power boost!

I can't see many psions taking Schism. (especially since they must be telepaths or burn a feat/undergo psychic surgery). The second mind is 6 manifester levels below that of the psion, and so if an 8th level telepath uses schism, it is as if they have a piggyback 2nd level psion (whoopty doo) that can only spend TWO pp per round; not much to worry about at average level 8.

And, of course, Schism costs 7 pp, and both minds then pull from the same point pool; further diluting the psions long-term effectiveness.

One thing, psions are actually limited with, are the discipline lists. Many of their more powerful powers are found there, so not every psion will have access to all of them. However, Expanded Knowledge allows to pick any those powers, so that's not too bad either. Given the bonus feats and the fact, that they don't need some feats arcane casters do (like Spell Focus - they can essentially buy that one (Psionatrix), or metapsionic feats - see above).

Every feat is precious...

having to use a feat to get a power you want is still harsh compared to the wizards general flexibility. Few powers from opposing lists are as drastic a difference as say giving a wizard a cleric or druid spell, for example.

So, the only true disadvantage psions have is their limited selection of powers to choose their powers known from. The advantages on the other hand seem to be overwhelming at least to me.

Under what circumstances? Flavor wise, I see little difference; both arcanists and psions are able to wow the pants off the villagers.

Crunch wise, huh? Things like dispel magic work on psionics, as does Antimagic Field. In a pre-planned encounter, few can topple a wizard. They are the masters of planning ahead.

Were I an army commander hiring artillery, I'd hire in this order: Sorceror > Wizard > Psion, where > means better than


I wouldn't call Psions overpowered simply because they outshine the Sorceror at innate abilities; they did a pretty poor job with the sorceror.

 

[ph0rk]

Don't you mean Psionic Talent? And shouldn't hp be lower?

Anyhow, I would go take Psionic Talent three times. Hit points would be lower, but my god, the +9 pp would make up for it.

Not if you planned on taking more than 3 psion levels; +9pp is garbage for 3 feats. Also, I believe that grants 2pp per feat.

 

[ph0rk]

Of course you cannot do that, it was just an example.

And he can also manifest tons of lower level powers, which do not need maximum augmentation (and not all do, I only assumed maximum augmentation in my example to get the minimum advantage).

Not also; either or.

A psion cannot spit out their maximum number of high level augmented powers and still spit out many low level powers; they just don't have the pp.

A 10th level sorceror (as per the DMG NPC lists) has the following spell slots: 6/7/7/7/5/3

a 10th level psion with similar stats (swap int and cha) and gear (i.e. no stat boosts) would have 103 pp, and 21 powers known. vs 24 total spells known by the sorceror.

(before you mention some of the sorcerors spells known and slots are 0-level, all the psionic equiv. powers are 1st level, which is a detriment imho)

now, ignoring metamagic feats for the moment, that sorceror can toss 15 fireballs per day, at 10d6 per., reflex save 16 for half.

The best comperable psion power (kineticists not included) is probably energy burst; which is tricky. it has a better radius (40') but it is centered on the caster. Yes, the kineticist has energy ball, but the other 5/6th of psions out there don't. Energy bolt is a psion 3rd power, and is similar to lightningbolt.

Granted, with the flexibilty of energy types, psions can do slightly more damage per cast, or choose to do less damage but ignore hardness, etc.

-BUT- what happens after the psion and sorceror have each tossed those 10 bolts?

The sorceror can lob 7 magic missles, 7 acid arrows, cast detect magic 5 times, and cast light so that they can sit down and read their favourite book.

The psion has (unless an elan or other psionic race) 3 points remaining. they can burst 3 times and pray to whatever god they worship that they escape. (hard to do from those magic missles, each doing 5d4+5)

How is the psion overpowering the sorceror here?

(and don't even ask about how much damage each can do to a single target. 29 caster level 10 magic missles, anyone?)

 

[Thanee]

These are still extremely expensive in power points; for example a 5th level psion with an int of 18 (possible w/ most point buy systems) has 35 power points. A 3rd level power costs 5, so yes, they can cast 7 3rd level spells per day.

And that's like the arcane casters alotment of 2nd and 3rd level spells together roughly! If he drops only one of those, he can add 5 1st level powers into the mix. Not so bad, really.

But I'm not saying, that the augmentation isn't costly, it sure is, just that psions still have a very respectable number of castings (well... manifestations), even if they augment all of their powers to the max! And they get better at that with every level (at level 5 they are everything but bad already, at level 20 it's bordering on the insane).

but: thats it. bammo, no more, all gone. An unwise psion can blow that in one combat, or two. It is -very- possible to have 4+ combats per game day; and the psion is pretty worthless in those additional combats, due to the player unwisely burning their points too quickly.

That's no difference with the arcane casters. They work the same.

Yes and no; they are more flexible but with a limit. A sorceror for example will always know more total spells/vs powers by level, ...

*LoL* !?

Maybe those 0th level (and one 2nd level)...

No, psions know more powers of all levels, actually.

And that's not counting, that psions can use almost all their low level powers at higher levels and usually have the equivalent of the higher versions (greater ...) included in their lower level ones.

Psions know equal or more powers of any given level (except 2nd, well and 0th )... whenever the sorcerer gains a new spell level, the psion will have 4 times as many powers at that level alone (plus all the scaleable ones)!

...and with smart metamagic feat selections, the sorcerors spells can scale much like a psion's powers.

So, the sorcerer - who doesn't get bonus feats - needs feats to keep up with the psions powers? Doesn't that feel... wrong?

Not exactly handy in combat

Ok.

yes, this is a class feature.

Yes, it is. And an advantage as well. A HUGE advantage over the sorcerer even.

Not without a lack of lower level powers; wheras a wizard can learn a great deal of 7-9th level spells with no penalty to their lower level capacity; sorcerors end up with more total spells known, ...

You don't actually want to count those 0th level ones, eh?

Ok, detect magic. That one is fair game.

See above for how wrong this statement is.

and bear in mind psions can's save up their discovered powers until later or replace ones they don't like as a sorceror can. (I believe).

Yeah, the sorcerer can do that, but it's only really useful to do away with powers, that are not useful later on at higher levels. The psion doesn't have to bother with that, since they don't have such powers!

No, they still must make the concentration check to gain focus (yes it is a move action) and this provokes an AOO

Yeah, it's a bit worse, but basically the same. The concentration check is not that hard and the AoO is only a problem in very rare circumstances.

I can't see many psions taking Schism. (especially since they must be telepaths or burn a feat/undergo psychic surgery). The second mind is 6 manifester levels below that of the psion, and so if an 8th level telepath uses schism, it is as if they have a piggyback 2nd level psion (whoopty doo) that can only spend TWO pp per round; not much to worry about at average level 8.

Ever noticed, how Quicken Spell / Quicken Power works?

And, of course, Schism costs 7 pp, and both minds then pull from the same point pool; further diluting the psions long-term effectiveness.

That's the price of speed... but unlike Quicken, the speed up doesn't cost anything (after those initial 7 PP). It pays off really fast!

having to use a feat to get a power you want is still harsh compared to the wizards general flexibility.

Sure is, but wizards cannot cast spontaneously. Forgot?

It's extremely harsh compared to that, if you have to prepare beforehand.
That's also why the sorcerer doesn't get all the goodies, and it's also why the psion should not get them in order to be balanced with the wizard and sorcerer!

Few powers from opposing lists are as drastic a difference as say giving a wizard a cleric or druid spell, for example.

Of course not. But wizards can't get those, so that's a non-issue.

Crunch wise, huh? Things like dispel magic work on psionics, as does Antimagic Field. In a pre-planned encounter, few can topple a wizard. They are the masters of planning ahead.

Again, that's the wizard's advantage, sure. But spontaneous casting (sorcerer) and manifesting (psion) is an incredible advantage, too!

I wouldn't call Psions overpowered simply because they outshine the Sorceror at innate abilities; they did a pretty poor job with the sorceror.

Having played both wizard and sorcerer for quite some time now, I can reassure you, that the sorcerer is absolutely equal to the wizard. Sure, they are a bit "boring" (or rather repetitive in their castings), since they don't get as many goodies and have to stick with a very limited spell selection, but power-wise, they can keep up easily.

There are situations, where the wizard is better (planning ahead with decent information), and others, where the sorcerer shines (unexpected events).

I doubt you have played a sorcerer and a wizard over a long time, really.

The spontaneous casting ability is HUGE (especially the higher the level gets)!

The authors of the PHB know that...

Psions get everything the sorcerer gets (sole exception: wider selection of spells to choose from compared to powers)... many of that is even better (flexibility)... and on top they get other huge advantages.

I really wonder how you can call that balanced, or even unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

A psion cannot spit out their maximum number of high level augmented powers and still spit out many low level powers; they just don't have the pp.

No, of course not, but for only few high level powers less (and we all know that the high level powers are the ones that decide battles) they can do tons of low level powers.

(before you mention some of the sorcerors spells known and slots are 0-level, all the psionic equiv. powers are 1st level, which is a detriment imho)

Yes, they need a single 1st level power for detect psionics. Wow! What a detriment.

-BUT- what happens after the psion and sorceror have each tossed those 10 bolts?

I never said, that it isn't costly to augment... and if you count every casting and every manifestation equal... then the sorcerer has more... but they are not equal... higher level ones are MUCH more potent than lower level ones!

How is the psion overpowering the sorceror here?

Uhm... let's see...

By having been able to manifest twice to thrice as many high level powers maybe?

By having four times as many high level (5th here) powers to select from compared to the ONE the sorcerer has (fireball isn't the answer to everything)?
If you include augmented lower level powers, the difference is more like a dozen and a half instead of one!

By having two feats (plus the one that is the sorcerer's familiar) more?

By not needing any verbal or somatic or material components?

By being able to do all that and wear a full plate armor?

I'm sure this is not even the end of the list...

And, not to mention, that at 10th level your fireball example is most favorably stacked towards the sorcerer (maximum scaling reached).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ph0rk]

I doubt you have played a sorcerer and a wizard over a long time, really.

Now who is getting snarky? I've played both long enough to get 9th level spells, if that ain't long enough you can keep your damn discussion.

I really wonder how you can call that balanced, or even unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer.

Like this: Sorcerors are generally weaker than Wizards except when serving as a living breathing howitzer.

-------

how the hell does it even matter when clerics and druids own them all anyway?


but, just for the sake of comedy; how would you construct a Psion that had access to dominate, suggestion, energy ball, and teleport circle?

Some of the best psion powers are on the discipline lists, and you only get access to one of those. If one were to burn all their feats, they could have (unable to use starting feats; you can only buy powers one level weaker than those you can manifest) you could have a max of 10 nonlist powers; 6 of which must be 5th level or lower. And that precludes any metapsionic feats save the ones selected at character creation.

What if you wanted even more powers that weren't on your list? A wizard can do all these things, and for someone who just took the high road about who has played what character type for how long you seem to forget that spontaneous casts vs prepared spells doesn't hurt nearly so bad as the levels get higher. In almost -all- cases if the party screws up bad enough that the Wizard Sorceror or Psion has to expend -all- spellcasting ablility, they've got some other issues than caster balance.


The wizard wins the prep fight.

The Sorceror has more total spells known vs/powers. Don't agree? How many powers 6th and higher does a level 20 psion get? 15. mind, thats at crunchiest 3 6th, 3 7th, 3 8th, 6 9th.

Assuming for one moment that total number of high level spells/powers known is the ultimate measure of power; there is no -large- discrepancy until 19th level; and even then in most cases a Psion would not end up with 6 9th level powers; the ones on the general list aren't that great and bear in mind they only have 30 powers 1-8. (the ones they selected by level 16)

how many does a sorceror have at level 16? 35. 35 spells. Yes, many of them are 0-level. I used 0-level spells all the time when I played wizards and sorcerors. Sometimes for flavor, sometimes for mechanics. Detect magic is pretty damn important; read magic can be as well. Mage hand/Far hand is one of my personal favourites, and so on. For a Psion these cost as much as a 1-level spell.

Are you interested in discussing balance or collecting testimonials from people who agree with you?

IMHO, the psion is well balanced with the core classes. If you do not agree, what would you change?