You don't like the new edition? Tell me about it!

[pemerton]

So all the minions in the world have delusions of grandeur? They think they are bad (As in kick butt bad) when all they are is bad (as in cant fight bad). ALL of them? What makes a minion a minion then. If they think they are strong enough to kill the pc, then why are they taking crap from the non-minon bad guy? What did he do to get to have full hp, that they didn't. Is it just because they have the red shirt on?

Does the PC whose player rolls 1s all night have delusions of grandeur? Some people are lucky, others are not. All that the "1 hp" entry on the Minion NPC record tells us is that this monster dies to the first hit from a member of the PC's party. It tells us nothing else about the cause of that unhappy destiny. What narrative explanation (if any) you want to give for the unluck of minions in combat is up to you, just as it is up to the player to explain why his or her PC is being so unlucky.

The characters that my players play should be thinking... "Why are these guys so easy to kill? Why do they keep coming and dying"

The answer to (1) would be either "Because we're so good" or else "Because they're so unlucky". The answer to (2) would be whatever answer explains that for monsters in your game. Afterall, most of the non-minions also die in the end, but they keep coming. Whatever story you tell about them, tell it about the minions too.

There is too much that is done for mechanics sake. I could probably justify anything if I really had to, or find a reason for it but I don't want to play a game where I have to.

<snip>

We try to put ourselves and our characters places and look for things that don't make sense. Then figure out why in game. It makes great stories.

Fine. You don't want to play a narrativist RPG. It doesn't follow that 4e is badly designed.

I can see the order of the stick strip now.

The Order of the Stick is a parody, generated by treating as ingame phenomena what are in fact metagame phenomena. If you think that you can't play a metagame heavy game without doing by inadvertance what The Order of the Stick does for deliberate humour, then 4e may not be the game for you.

 

[pemerton]

Honestly, I think that's one of the issues with 4e. The further divorce of mechanics and how they actually reflect in game. It's not a good thing when more and more questions need to be answered with "Just because."

Who said "Just because"? I didn't. Why do Minions have 1 hit point? Because that delivers a desired play experience! If you don't want to play that sort of game, Rolemaster and Runequest are still very much in print.

And I have to ask - are you familiar with games like The Riddle of Steel, HeroWars/Quest or The Dying Earth, all of which have robust metagame mechanics comparable to 4e's treatment of hit points, healing surges, minions and so on?

Assuming that you are, then the answer to the question "How do I narratate a minoin, or the use of a healing urge?" is "The same as you would narrate a contest in HeroWars, or The Dying Earth, or the same way you would narrate a use of Spiritual Attributes in TRoS". If you are not familiar with those games, then I'm less surprised that you seem not to understand the design logic of 4e.

Of course I am not arguing that you should like 4e. I understand the design logic of Tunnels & Trolls, of Classic Traveller, and of I Kill Puppies for Satan, but I have no real desire to play any of them. But I don't dismiss their design by saying it's "Just because." That's nonsense. And it's the nonsense that I object to.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be for saying why we DON'T like 4e? Not supporting it?

 

[pemerton]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be for saying why we DON'T like 4e? Not supporting it?

Fair enough.

 

[DandD]

Meh, seeing as how the non-4th edition forumites get to creep into the 4th edition message boards to complain about 4th edition all the time, the 4th edition enthusiasts creeping back into anti-4th edition threads is only a natural thing. Laws of conservation and such.
Also, it's always the same person anyways. It's always the same faces of pro-4th editioners butting head with anti-4th editioners, and vice-versa.
As long as no insults are hurled across the boards, the moderators won't interfere.

 

[Tsyr]

Someone else said it earlier better, but it boils down to "I can't play the DnD campaign I've played for over a decade without more house rules than pre-packaged rules". The 2E-3E transition wasn't seamless, but few major fundamental assumptions changed... And when they did, it was adding things, that I could chose to ignore or not. I didn't have to rewrite entire classes, re-create races, etc. Everything I needed was still there, there was just extra goodies that I could use or not as I saw fit.

I could point to other things, like flippantly changing things like core wheel cosmology or reinventing elves... And I don't mean re-inventing like "halflings lost weight", here. I could go into the death of part of my soul when I read the "agro rules". I could discuss the abomination that is the new monster manual, or how much I despise this or hate that, but really that's what it boils down to. 2E to 3E was a major change, but making the transition was mostly a matter of re-doing existing things with new rules. 4E doesn't have half the rules I would need to re-do an existing setting without massive, massive changes.

I guess if I wanted to sum up how I feel about 4E, is its like... a step backwards, it feels more like an RPG from a smaller publisher. It feels like the RPG that a company makes that has a system that works for it's setting, and a setting wrote around it's system, and that might be fine on it's own, and sure you can write your own setting for it's system, but the nature of it's system means that your setting is going to be similar to it's pre-assumed one.

 

[noretoc]

Does the PC whose player rolls 1s all night have delusions of grandeur? Some people are lucky, others are not. All that the "1 hp" entry on the Minion NPC record tells us is that this monster dies to the first hit from a member of the PC's party. It tells us nothing else about the cause of that unhappy destiny. What narrative explanation (if any) you want to give for the unluck of minions in combat is up to you, just as it is up to the player to explain why his or her PC is being so unlucky.

so I say again, every minion in the word is unliucky. Is there a god of minions who hates his followers? Is there a curse on them? Heck, I'll play a minion and go on a quest to lift it. There is a difference between EVERY minion be klilled by a single shot, or a player rolling a few 1s, Unless you mean you have players that roll 1s every roll. I will not believe you. Not with the amount of rolling you do in a 4ed game. The work it would take to find a reason why minion are in the game that makes sense for the campaign world, are not wort the fun they bring in.

The answer to (1) would be either "Because we're so good" or else "Because they're so unlucky". The answer to (2) would be whatever answer explains that for monsters in your game. Afterall, most of the non-minions also die in the end, but they keep coming. Whatever story you tell about them, tell it about the minions too.

Monsters in my game have varied reason for fighting till they die. Again, we are not talking about just a single minded race, we are talking every minion of every race every where, world without end. In my campaign orc run away when they lose the advantage of number, or see a bunch of thier dead tribemen. But nor minions, according to the book. They are there just to die...

Fine. You don't want to play a narrativist RPG. It doesn't follow that 4e is badly designed.

One, I play a narrative game. I don't want to play one that break sense. Two, I didn't say it was badly designed. I am explaining what I don't like about it.

snip
4e may not be the game for you.

That is the point of this whole thread. Your the one who came in and started arguing. What is it about 4ed people that take this personal. No matter how many of us that don't like the game say it is probably a good fit for other people, and that it is fun for others, they still feel the need to defend why it should be fun for us too. It is as if THEY made the game, and have to defend it to thier last breath. Just relax, and realize that there are thoes of us that don't like it. You can like it. You can play it. You can have fun with it. I don't, and this thread is for me to share why with others who either do or don't.

And come on my OoTS spoof was funny!!!

 

[ironvyper]

Who said "Just because"? I didn't. Why do Minions have 1 hit point? Because that delivers a desired play experience! If you don't want to play that sort of game, Rolemaster and Runequest are still very much in print.

And I have to ask - are you familiar with games like The Riddle of Steel, HeroWars/Quest or The Dying Earth, all of which have robust metagame mechanics comparable to 4e's treatment of hit points, healing surges, minions and so on?

Did'nt 3.5 sell more copies in an average week then all those games put together sold during their entire print run? Eventually even the fanbois are gonna realize that WoTC doesn't piss gold and crap diamonds and this big load they dropped on us with 4e isn't a "diamond that just needs to be polished". Its not something that the rest of fail to have the imagination to grasp.... It is in fact a big stinky turd just like those other games you mentioned were small stinky turds and all of us who don't like 4e have plenty of imagination, we just don't feel the need to waste it on a crappy game when theres several other perfectly good options available to us.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Did'nt 3.5 sell more copies in an average week then all those games put together sold during their entire print run? Eventually even the fanbois are gonna realize that WoTC doesn't piss gold and crap diamonds and this big load they dropped on us with 4e isn't a "diamond that just needs to be polished". Its not something that the rest of fail to have the imagination to grasp.... It is in fact a big stinky turd just like those other games you mentioned were small stinky turds and all of us who don't like 4e have plenty of imagination, we just don't feel the need to waste it on a crappy game when theres several other perfectly good options available to us.

WOW. I am not a 4E fanboi at all but that is a bit harsh. 4E is not my cup of tea for an ongoing fantasy game but even I wouldn't call it a turd. It does fine as a boardgame and some find it perfect for thier campaign so I think we can express our opinions here without being so disrespectful.

 

[Felix]

Did'nt 3.5 sell more copies in an average week then all those games put together sold during their entire print run? Eventually even the fanbois are gonna realize that WoTC doesn't piss gold and crap diamonds and this big load they dropped on us with 4e isn't a "diamond that just needs to be polished". Its not something that the rest of fail to have the imagination to grasp.... It is in fact a big stinky turd just like those other games you mentioned were small stinky turds and all of us who don't like 4e have plenty of imagination, we just don't feel the need to waste it on a crappy game when theres several other perfectly good options available to us.

Please do not give those of us who dislike aspects of 4e a bad name. This post does that unfortunately well. It is such a shame after noretoc's reasonable post explaining his displeasure with the 4e system.