You don't like the new edition? Tell me about it!

[noretoc]

It's also perhaps true that low-level PCs get more powerful because those same changes make them less likely to die on a single unlucky dice roll. Why is this a bad thing?

Because for some people playing a character that is afraid to take that one hit, so they look for ways to avoid it IS fun.

So, what does this have to do with 4E? The Fighters purpose seems to hit people that try to ignore him so hard that they reconsider.

I don't know who said this, but it is silly. Let me put myself in the place of my character (The whole object of a RPG in my opinion). I get into a fight. A big dude is involved. I try to get away from him, and he "hits me so hard I reconcider" and go after him. Not so much. If he hits me that hard, I fracking run the hell away from him, and find somone easier to kill. Aggro is not rational, even in the context of a fantasy RPG. Could it work on some people, yea, thoes who have berserker traits, but should it work on the average mo. Heck no. Maybe 4ed bad guys never flee. (that would explain minions, heck if I got into a battle and me and my five friends knew one hit would kill us, would we stick around to confuse the opponent and make time for our leader?? hell no, all you'd see is my minion arse running the hell outta there. )

 

[The Little Raven]

I get into a fight. A big dude is involved. I try to get away from him, and he "hits me so hard I reconcider" and go after him. Not so much. If he hits me that hard, I fracking run the hell away from him, and find somone easier to kill.

You mean, you try to run away and get a bigger helping of ass-whooping and can't actually get away because he's able to restrict your movement, as well as make it more difficult for you to attack that easier-to-kill target, which also provokes reprisals from the big dude.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Raven, I am so using that, should you grant permission.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You mean, you try to run away and get a bigger helping of ass-whooping and can't actually get away because he's able to restrict your movement, as well as make it more difficult for you to attack that easier-to-kill target, which also provokes reprisals from the big dude.

Thats part of the problem-he is either grappling me to do this or he is a cleric or wizard using a sword and pretending to be a fighter. Sticky superpowers are BS. Just call him a warmage and be done with it.

 

[noretoc]

You mean, you try to run away and get a bigger helping of ass-whooping and can't actually get away because he's able to restrict your movement, as well as make it more difficult for you to attack that easier-to-kill target, which also provokes reprisals from the big dude.

Well, the sentence I quoted was trying to describe an in-game reason how the mark system was plausable. My reply was to show how the in-game reason didn't work. All you did here was make the point even stronger. How in game does that big guy restrict my movement, and hurt me more when I go after someone else? He's not grabbing me. (That would be a grapple). He isnt walking over to me and slapping me when I hit the other person, since the mark can be at a range (unless he has 30 foot arms). If I really want to find reason for how a mark works, I could, but that wasn't my point. My point was to show why THAT explanation didn't work.

 

[pemerton]

if I got into a battle and me and my five friends knew one hit would kill us, would we stick around to confuse the opponent and make time for our leader?? hell no, all you'd see is my minion arse running the hell outta there.

The "1 hit point" entry on minions is something that the GM knows, and perhaps that the players know. It is not something that the imaginary people in the gameworld know.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The "1 hit point" entry on minions is something that the GM knows, and perhaps that the players know. It is not something that the imaginary people in the gameworld know.

Honestly, I think that's one of the issues with 4e. The further divorce of mechanics and how they actually reflect in game. It's not a good thing when more and more questions need to be answered with "Just because."

 

[noretoc]

The "1 hit point" entry on minions is something that the GM knows, and perhaps that the players know. It is not something that the imaginary people in the gameworld know.

So all the minions in the world have delusions of grandeur? They think they are bad (As in kick butt bad) when all they are is bad (as in cant fight bad). ALL of them? What makes a minion a minion then. If they think they are strong enough to kill the pc, then why are they taking crap from the non-minon bad guy? What did he do to get to have full hp, that they didn't. Is it just because they have the red shirt on?

I know that that is the way the game works, but that is one of my problems with the game. There is too much that is done for mechanics sake. I could probably justify anything if I really had to, or find a reason for it but I don't want to play a game where I have to. The characters that my players play should be thinking... "Why are these guys so easy to kill? Why do they keep coming and dying" Luckily I have players that will have thier characters wonder things like that, because that is how we role-play. We try to put ourselves and our characters places and look for things that don't make sense. Then figure out why in game. It makes great stories. (I love my players).

I can see the order of the stick strip now.

Kobold Elite: Attack
Kobold Minion: Attack? That guy just killed like twenty of us
Kobold Elite: That is ok, you were made to attack "in droves and go down fast"
Kobold Minion: Go down fast? What do you mean??? I was born in the same clutch you were. We have the same mom.
Kobold Elite: But I am an elite, I will not die so easy.
Kobold Minion: How did you get to be Elite. Why you. I always knew mom liked you best.
Kobold Elite: Attack!
Kobold Minion: F%^& you, you attack, I'm getting out of here.
Kobold Elite: But you are my Shock troopers
Kobold Minion: The only thing I'm shocked at is that my other 20 brother were dumb enough to run up there after the first ten got killed. I'm outta here, I'm gonna go open up a shop somewhere, store keepers may not have HP, but the PC cant attack them either.

 

[Khuxan]

I like 4E, but I feel a bit disillusioned by its release. I suppose I had unreasonably expected it to be perfect. Here are seven things I don't like about the new edition:

• Skill challenges don't seem to work.
• Feats are very limited, mainly because of poorly thought-out ability score requirements and because what could be one feat became dozens (e.g. the Epic weapon group feats that double the crit range).
• Multiclassing looks dreadful and tacked on. I would've preferred nothing and the promise of something coming in the future.
• Monster flavour has become much less inspired - it really disappointed me to see Maruts reduced to 'extraplanar mercenaries': just like archons, yugoloths, etc., etc.
• Restricted classes, like how most rogue powers are limited to very specific weapons.
• Few animals in the MM.
• The inevitable errors and misprints, like the shonky cascade of blades.

 

[Treebore]

Your criticism makes no sense to me. Yes, in 4e the players get more powerful, but this is because the changs to the game's mechanics of character build and action resolution give the players more narrative control. Why is this a bad thing?

It's also perhaps true that low-level PCs get more powerful because those same changes make them less likely to die on a single unlucky dice roll. Why is this a bad thing?

And those who don't like the flavour of traditional D&D magic items can easily strip it out in a mechanically consistent fashion. Why is this a bad thing?

Is there anyone whose objection to magic items in 3E was not a flavour one, but rather that it made it too easy for the players to have fun? How can a game make it too easy to have fun? That's the raison d'etre of a game!

It doesn't matter, all it means is I am better off staying with the game system I am playing. It does everything I want it to do, and I like how it goes about doing it. 4E has nothing to offer that is better than what I am doing now, and it gives me a lot of things I don't like, which I would have to change.

So I'll look 4E over and just take the ideas I like and integrate them into the game I have. That is much easier, and cheaper, than buying 4E and making it into a game I would like.

I am not into the "Its new, so its cool!" crowd. I am in the "Why bother? I am very happy with what I have." group.