D&D (2024) Youre All Wrong. Its Not A Martial vs Caster Situation

[TheSword]

Honestly, because as long as you weren't playing the fighter or the rogue, 3e was pretty fun to lean into the "OP wizard" fantasy.

Until someone cast dispel magic, of course. Or god forbid Mordenkainen's disjunction.

I know it was most fun at early levels. Started to go off the rails around levels 8-9

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes 3 rounds of preparation would decimate almost any encounter they then fought. Save DCs went through the roof, buffs up the wazoo. I look back on it and wonder how we put up with it for 10 years.

Probably because it almost never happened. It was mostly theory crafting online.

 

[cbwjm]

Probably because it almost never happened. It was mostly theory crafting online.

Theory crafting has rarely, if ever, had anything to do with actual play.

 

[TheSword]

Probably because it almost never happened. It was mostly theory crafting online.

No no, it was quite common to get time to prepare for combat. Don’t get me wrong we got close to the point that our DM would make every fight an ambush but it was still relatively easy to get time to buff up multiple spells with 10 min to hour long durations.

 

[Zardnaar]

No no, it was quite common to get time to prepare for combat. Don’t get me wrong we got close to the point that our DM would make every fight an ambush but it was still relatively easy to get time to buff up multiple spells with 10 min to hour long durations.

Could do that I'm talking more about persistent spell shenanigans and DC 40+ spell DCs.

1. Required knowledge how to do it.
2. Usually required multiple books.
3. Required higher level
4. Often involved a prestige class
5. Required DM buy in.

Buff spells themselves generally weren't broken in 3E. Making them last 24 hours was.

 

[TheSword]

Could do that I'm talking more about persistent spell shenanigans and DC 40+ spell DCs.

1. Required knowledge how to do it.
2. Usually required multiple books.
3. Required higher level
4. Often involved a prestige class
5. Required DM buy in.

Buff spells themselves generally weren't broken in 3E. Making them last 24 hours was.

Yes persistent spells were heinous.

Still I remember the divine favour, divine strength, heroism combo getting a lot of use and being particularly disgusting. A level 10 cleric was getting +10 to hit and +8 damage on every attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes persistent spells were heinous.

Still I remember the divine favour, divine strength, heroism combo getting a lot of use and being particularly disgusting. A level 10 cleric was getting +10 to hit and +8 damage on every attack.

That all you weren't trying hard enough. We had a bard granting +8 to hit and damage level 8 could have been 16 but we missed some parts.

Around about then saying no became a good idea. Concentration fixes that.

 

[GrimCo]

Don't forget Righteus might. I loved that spell. It was downright nasty when paired with monkey grip and huge keen scythe.

3.x/PF1 loved those bonus hoarding and buff stacking (so long as it granted different type of bonus, but there were quite a few of those). Pre fight buffing was practically standard. Or first round or two buffing while meat shield holds the line and soaks the damage.

Played and ran fair bit of high level 3.x/PF1/5e with people who had great deal of system mastery. Game just falls apart. There is a reason why levels 3-8 (streching to maybe lv 10-12). After that, it starts to crack. 15+ and PCs can do some nasty nasty stuff.

 

[Zardnaar]

Don't forget Righteus might. I loved that spell. It was downright nasty when paired with monkey grip and huge keen scythe.

3.x/PF1 loved those bonus hoarding and buff stacking (so long as it granted different type of bonus, but there were quite a few of those). Pre fight buffing was practically standard. Or first round or two buffing while meat shield holds the line and soaks the damage.

Played and ran fair bit of high level 3.x/PF1/5e with people who had great deal of system mastery. Game just falls apart. There is a reason why levels 3-8 (streching to maybe lv 10-12). After that, it starts to crack. 15+ and PCs can do some nasty nasty stuff.

I think level 1-7 is often just time irl.

3E came out forums became a thing and people were theorycrafting level 15 builds.

Took us a year to get to level 7 in C&C playing bi weekly. AD&D we made it that high once playing Monty haul.

Got to level 7 4 or 5 months 5E.

 

[haakon1]

Not to my recollection, but I didn't play a ton of AD&D, and I certainly wasn't evaluating it with anything like the critical eye I have now.

Caster supremacy really became a thing in 3e; its excesses were such that the next 2 editions worked hard to make sure the casters stayed under control. No other edition can hold a candle (or a continual flame) to the raw power of a 3e caster with some time on their hands.

The keys to caster supremacy claims: assume high level play, no time pressure, players of non-caster classes who don’t play creatively, and opponents that don’t adapt to “casters are better” by coming up with countermeasures or concentrating their attacks on casters.

I mean, sure: “Casters are easy if you play in a way that’s easy on casters” is true in a tautological way.

“Casters are weak if it’s low level play, the DM doesn’t let parties rest often, intelligent foes concentrate on unaliving casters first, and casters are limited to spells on their character sheets while others can be creative” is also true.

Balance arguments always seem pointless to me. Talking in circles.