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You're doing what? Surprising the DM

Okay, silly surprises I've used include "Wall of Horse": Using a Mount spell to interrupt the charge of an opponent.

I was running a pseudo-Pixie (don't ask) with Gloves of Storing in one game, and on a whim he had picked up a military cot, so a friend could have a "real" bed. In a later scene, when an ally was being pursued by mounted riders, the call came: Fire Futon Torpedoes! as he flew into their path and dropped the bed in front of them.

Using Grease on a tower shield so we could use it as a toboggan in a sloping corridor.

Less silly maneuvers I've seen/used included tossing a Necklace of Missiles into a room, and following it with a fireball. Unattended, the necklace won't get a Save, and all the fireball missiles will go off.

Creating a Silent Image of darkness or fog (as Obscuring Mist). My allies, being warned, can see through it just fine, but enemies have to deal the the obscurement.

Our campaigns have had to adapt to "Faerie Gold" created by Major Creation. It lasts 20 minutes per caster level, which when you consider the caster level needed to cast it at all, means you can create literally tons of gold that will be around for hours. And not every shop keeper has Detect Magic around. We house ruled that faerie gold vanished when struck with cold iron, so pretty much every vendor in any city of decent size has a plate or bar of the stuff built into their counter to foil counterfeiters.

There are a lot more.
 

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I'm nearly exclusively a DM.

Simple fact is I'm so accustom to my plans not surviving contact with the PCs, the idea of a player ambush seems like par for the course for me. It doesn't bother me because to me, that's how the game works.
 

As DM I don't mind surprises like this at all as long as it's not just someone trying to break something in the game.

As player I don't always like to let the DM know my long-term plans as my long-term plans sometimes tend to mess up his plotlines - sometimes intentionally so. (we've got a plotline in one game that's been going on for years; one of my characters thinks he's found a way through a completely coincidental series of experiences he's had to cut through all the BS and all-or-nothing solve it. But I really don't want to tell the DM what I have in mind until I actually start doing it, and who knows when that'll be)

Other than illusions, I ran out of creative uses for most normal spells ages ago. :)

Lanefan
 

Celebrim said:
In short, I expect none of these issues to present insurrmountable problems to a party, but I do expect the journey to go less than smoothly - however much it may beat walking. I'd also expect that this is a perfect time for intraparty characterization and role play. If you really want to impress me, stay in character as you play out these difficulties. I'll definately give XP for that equivalent to what you would have gained slogging you way through the desert. On the other hand, you want to hand wave the journey, threat this as a contest between players and the DM, and get all rules lawyery and analytical in responce to the challenges I present, I'll let you 'win', but not a lot of XP is going to be forth coming for your short cut.

See, I tend to get a bit... shirty when DM's start doing this.

The only real reason that the checks are being forced is because you want me to "slog my way through the desert". And, the DM will simply rule against the party until the checks are made.

I mean, how hard would it really be to tie yourself to the creature if it's really that hard to ride? Like I said, I figured that crossing the wasteland Fremen (Dune) style was totally cool.

But, then the DM steps in and starts forcing skill checks until we fail. I hate this sort of thing with a passion to be honest.

The fact that I've come up with a way to hand wave our way across the desert should be a giant glowing neon sign that I don't want to piss about slogging across the desert. We have a goal. We're not exploring. We are trying to get to the destination and I couldn't care less about the journey. If I wanted to slog my way across the desert, I wouldn't have summoned a mount for the entire party in the first place.

So, yeah, I really don't like this style of DMing. And then punishing the party by withholding XP simply because we don't want to slog across the desert is just icing on the cake.

It's this sort of thing that I really believe strips players of any desire to try to be creative at the table. When creativity is actively punished, why bother being creative?
 

See, I tend to get a bit... shirty when DM's start doing this.

I tend to get up and walk away from the table when PC's take that attitude, and generally tell them I have no desire to be their DM ever again. I've got no desire to waste my time on that sort of anti-social BS. I gave that crap up in junior high.

The only real reason that the checks are being forced is because you want me to "slog my way through the desert".

Wrong. The real reason that the checks are being made is because they are suitable to enriching the imaginary situation at hand, which is, "What would it be like to ride on the back of a gigantic centipede?" You see, what is really at stake here is the question not of whether I will allow propositions, because I will, but whether I will allow dictated outcomes - which I won't. I _love_ the solution of conjuring a giant centipede to cross the desert. It's evocative, fantastic, and memorable. But I want to take those strengths and dwell on the crossing itself, the difficulties both small and great and the ultimate (desirable) triumph resulting from the plan. Whereas the PC who gets 'shirty' really is the sort of ego gamer that wants to dictate to the DM not what he proposes to do but what actually happens, and believes the the DM exists only to validate his awesomeness by saying, "Yes, sir.", to whatever he imagines is the answer to a problem. I really have no desire to deal with a players emotional issues and the chips on his shoulder that he's bringing to the table because of past conflicts with other DMs. I have no desire to deal with the entire DM vs. players attitude that sees 'conjuring a centipede' as winning, that not only sees it as defeating the DM but expects the DM to see it as being defeated, and treats any attempt by the DM to roll with that situation and integrate it into the game play as the DM cheating the player out of their 'victory'. If that is the way you think, find a different table.

And, the DM will simply rule against the party until the checks are made.

What the heck does that mean? What do you mean 'rule against the party'? Is this a contest? And isn't, 'Make a skill check.', actually the ruling? In what sense is that 'against the party'? This is basic 'Say yes and roll the dice' DMing. And what is it that you percieve as being 'against the party' prior to the check being made anyway? See fundamentally there is the assumption here that DM's aren't impartial, that they are rooting against the players, and that the DM's fundamentally see there job as ruining the players fun where the players fun is described as dictating to the DM successful outcomes and recieving validation of their universal brilliance.

I mean, how hard would it really be to tie yourself to the creature if it's really that hard to ride?

I don't know. You tell me what you plan to do. Meanwhile, describe what you want to do, make a Use Rope check, and I'll note the concrete situation involved here - you are tied down to a gigantic scurrying creature - in case this concrete fact is relevant later either for avoiding difficulty or complicating a situation.

Like I said, I figured that crossing the wasteland Fremen (Dune) style was totally cool.

It is totally cool. As I said, I love it. In what way does it stop being totally cool if the drawf cleric falls off occasionally, or we role play out a situation where the centipede charges into and out of a gully and leaves the party grasping at antenna and legs to keep from sliding off? Do you think that I imagine those situations simply to create unnecessary difficulty? There is an implicit assumption here that if you'd conjured giant eagles, that I'd conjure a red dragon to 'counter' you and that somehow talking about skill checks is me taking frustration out on the players rather than me trying to make the game fun.

But, then the DM steps in and starts forcing skill checks until we fail. I hate this sort of thing with a passion to be honest.

Yeah, me too. Tell you what. Let's not game together ever.

The fact that I've come up with a way to hand wave our way across the desert should be a giant glowing neon sign that I don't want to piss about slogging across the desert. We have a goal. We're not exploring.

Sorry, you as a player don't get to dictate what my game is to me or to the rest of the players. If your so singularly engaged in one particular style of play that exploration, narration, thespianism, low drama, dungeon crawling, tactical gaming or whatever doesn't engage you to the point that you are going to get 'shirty' if we detour in gaming focus from your preferred style, then I consider you an inherently anti-social gamer that needs to go find a different DM and a less diverse group than I usually play with. Not only do I not want to do the same thing every session, but there is a good chance out of the six or so players at the table there is at least one that thinks exploration is the main attraction of the game and is relatively bored by combat, levelling up, or whatever you think the 'destination' is. And frankly, if you want to cross a desert with minimal interaction with the desert, you're much better off flying over it than tying yourself down to the back of a huge scurrying vermin. On the back of huge scurrying vermin is such intimate interaction with the desert that its the sort of thing that I would probably include as the means of crossing the desert in the first place. There are probably places somewhere in my world where hobgoblin guides run taxi services for travellers on the backs of giant beetles or something. It's the sort of thing I'd do because foot travel is mundane and insufficiently fantastic to spark players interaction and emmersion into the environment. They won't take the time to imagine the scene, to make a movie of the game in their heads, if I just have them cross a desert on foot. But in a caravan of giant beetles with colorful NPC's and giant centipede riding bandits, now that they'll imagine.

And the whole notion that the goal is to force a 'slog' is just bizarre. Everything that about D&D can be viewed as a slog if you are 'destination' focused. Oh, gee, must we get in a combat again? Oh, gee, another NPC to talk to. Must I role-play _again_? Oh great, a trap filled tomb. If all that is important is the destination, why bother playing? Just fill out what you want your 20th level character to look like and be done with it. The whole game is the journey. One of the inherent attributes of an PnP RPG is that it is open ended. There never is a destination. It's all journey.

It's this sort of thing that I really believe strips players of any desire to try to be creative at the table. When creativity is actively punished, why bother being creative?

Punished? You have a really strange notion of what being punished is. If the DM tries to emmerse you in the situation by making you think about the concrete realities of the situation, that's being punished? Most players I've had consider emersion to be something desirable in a session. Thinking about tying themselves down to a giant centipede and imagining the details of the journey makes the game more exciting and rewarding, and not less. On the back of a giant centipede scurrying over gravel beds, salt pans, giant dunes, dry gullies, and what not is generally a more rewarding experience to them than teleporting across the desert. Heck, you've got no clue. I'm the guy that when a player new to the game says, "I want my character to ride dinosuars that shoot lasers from their eyes." says, "Yeah, I think that would be great for the game. Keep in mind that sense you are first level it might be a while before you can acquire the laser firing dinosaur, but let me tell you how to build that character and make him interesting along the way to your goal." Being creative is not the problem I ever have with players.
 
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I've run into a conflict involving this sort of situation.

On the one hand, when the PCs come up with an inspired or unexpected solution to a challenge, they're demonstrating that they're good players. If their solutions add to "good story", so much the better.

On the other hand, if such solutions mean that a planned encounter/situation suddenly becomes "no challenge", do we as DMs lower the effective challenge rating of the scene to reflect that perceived lack of challenge?

In short, do we reward disruptive behavior? Do we penalize clever and intelligent play?

In the "Ride a giant centipede" situation, all they've really done is remove the need to care for mounts. Encounters that follow might change, but a good DM should be able to adapt. They'll still need to handle the environment (heat and thirst), and all of the other Survival Check type challenges inherent in such a passage. None of those things will change.

Would I let them ride such a creature bare-back? Sure, why not. Give me a DC 15 ride check to mount and stay in the lack-of-saddle and I'm good with it. I'd give a situational synergy bonus if someone had an applicable skill like Use Rope to fashion a makeshift harness to help.

Having done a bit of riding (nothing huge, I'm no expert) I know that when the terrain gets steep, staying in the saddle can become problematic. And clinging to a hard carapace without stirrups? Loads of fun, I'm sure. So yeah, I'd call for a check when the terrain gets rough. I'd call for a check of some sort pretty much any time they shift from riding the straight and level.

More to the point though, I'd allow Handle Animal and/or Survival checks to help plot a course that minimizes the rough terrain. Yeah, the Giant Centipede has a Climb speed, and it won't think twice about tackling that vertical rock face. A good rider, though, will try to find a way around, or find a way to cut across the face so the mount isn't in an unrideable position.

Yeah, there are a few things that will steer clear of such a mount. Other things might see it as competition, an intruder in its territory. So the encounters will be fewer, but bigger. And riding the Centipede when it goes into battle? I'd not only question the ability to do it, but whether you'd even want to try.

Note that I wouldn't be doing this to "punish" the PCs for their creativity, but to reflect it in game, and in fact to reward them with potentially greater EXP opportunities.
 

I love it when players surprise me. In fact, in my 4e game, I don't even pay attention to what characters my players play at all. I throw out some basic guidelines and house rules, but then I leave it up to them to make whatever they want. They then describe the PC to me in their terms, but I don't review their character sheets, or vet their power or feat choices.

All I need to know is what level and who their characters are in a story sense. The tight balance of the game allows me to step away from concerning myself over what they are building or playing and I find it so refreshingly liberating as DM. I make tough encounters and do my utmost to kill or defeat them. Its up to them to maximize their resources, abilities, and teamwork to survive. I love it when they surprise me with some awesome combo and party synergy. :)
 

I've run into a conflict involving this sort of situation.

On the one hand, when the PCs come up with an inspired or unexpected solution to a challenge, they're demonstrating that they're good players.

This could potentially lead us into a discussion of what the word creativity really means. For myself though, the reason that PC's coming up with inspired and creative solutions to a problem is fun and desirable, is because it is a marker that the player is invested in my campaign. He's thinking about the space his character is in, he is interacting with it, and he is imagining possibilities within it. This is a 'a good thing' whether or not the solution is expected or unexpected. If it is unexpected, as I said, the only question is whether this is a rules problem in the future. I've been DMing for nearly 30 years now, and nothing the players do short of comitting suicide can really disrupt my game. There are just too many stock fall back plans and recovery models I can use, and very little types of solutions that I don't have plans for. The 'short cut' solution doesn't present a problem because they get from A to B faster than I want. The main problem with 'short cuts' is that they often mean that the player's arrive at B with fewer resources than I planned to give them. That badlands contains treasure, potential allies, clues, and experience that will be helpful when they get to B. If they teleport across it, use a wish to get a djinn to carry them across, or simply fly over it its not so much that they've ruined my fun, as they have potentially lost out on things. But by this point, I've been doing this long enough to have a backup plan for, "What happens if the party gets to B without the dingus?" written into the text. In fact, I like to occasionally amuse myself and my players when they pull tricks like this by occasionally pulling out my notes and reading them verbatim, just to show that I really did foresee the possibility and in some cases had actually counted on it.

On the other hand, if such solutions mean that a planned encounter/situation suddenly becomes "no challenge", do we as DMs lower the effective challenge rating of the scene to reflect that perceived lack of challenge?

To me, XP results from two things - participating in the game and entertaining the DM. It's a marker for the fact that story has happened and the character has as a result growed. It's heroes journey stuff. If no story happens, if the PC's find some way to step out of the story and avoid it, then they get no XP because nothing important happened to them. There was no oppurtunity for growth. If you teleport across the desert, all the experiences that bring you experience points didn't happen to you. If on the other hand, something does happen to you and you resolve the challenge on the road of problems easily, that still is something that happened to you and worth the full experience points for overcoming the challenge. How much you get isn't weighed by how easily you succeeded, but by how much worth I assigned it before hand.

In the "Ride a giant centipede" situation, all they've really done is remove the need to care for mounts.

Yeah, you can pull pretty much the exact same trick with a string of disposable ponies. Either way though, I want to role play it out. For one thing, it's pretty obvious what the real trick is with the string of disposable ponies, but I think the players might eventually be shocked to discover what the trick is - and question whether it is fundamentally morally the same - with the giant centipede. You want to earn some bonus XP in my game? You ride that centipede through the desert, overcoming challenges together, and then ride it until it dies - stop - and then seriously consider whether the centipede had become your friend in the course of the journey and if so what that means to you and your character. I'll give as much XP for that as I would for killing a monster on the sheer story value alone.

Encounters that follow might change, but a good DM should be able to adapt. They'll still need to handle the environment (heat and thirst), and all of the other Survival Check type challenges inherent in such a passage. None of those things will change.

Frankly, I'm not sure that the strategy would pay a huge dividend in obstacle avoidance in my game, but it definately would be fun (hopefully for all). I check for random encounters in the wilderness for each hex you enter as well as planned encounters in certain hexes, so what you are really doing here by travelling fast is compressing 3 or 4 days worth of encounters into a single day - assuming that you treat this as a road trip with no potty stops. The centipede has a 40 ft. base move, which isn't enough to avoid pretty much anything in the wilderness (horses are much faster, and I generally design with them in mind), to say nothing of fliers and burrowing lurkers and other ambush predators that you'd be stumbling into. Moreover, I'm not convinced that if the party rides a centipede past 'tourist traps' like 'Valley of Ancient Tombs' or 'Ruins of Lost Temple' or 'Entrance to the Dragon's Lair' that they aren't going to want to 'stop the car' and get out and explore. Plus, I'm pretty much definately going to make them RP stopping for lunch or else at least let them role play through having a picnic or trying to urinate off the back of a hustling giant centipede because being on the back of a giant centipede makes those events less mundane. The idea I'm going for here isn't necessarily the threat involved in taking a leak when aboard a monstrous centipede, but the image of it. And that's not even getting to the fun to be had figuring out how to ride the creature. If your goal is to avoid mundane travel, I think this would definately fail because what you've actually done is sparked my interest in the means of travel. You've made the process of the journey more interesting to explore.

Your approach to skill checks sounds similar to mine.

Note that I wouldn't be doing this to "punish" the PCs for their creativity, but to reflect it in game, and in fact to reward them with potentially greater EXP opportunities.

Indeed. I have no real interest in punishing players. The notion is absurd. The tax collector doesn't come around because you are a PC. It comes around because the only things certain in life are Death and Taxes. Heck, the last time that the tax collector came around in my game, the cleric talked him out of assessing taxes on the grounds that all the profit had gone to the church - his own - which wasn't taxable. The parties current henchmen is a 15 year old lawyer who is basically employed to find tax loopholes and shady investment oppurtunities. It's been fun for everyone involved. I assume that if you are sitting down for a PnP role playing game, that you like to a greater or lesser degree all the things that implies.
 
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I've run into a conflict involving this sort of situation.

On the one hand, when the PCs come up with an inspired or unexpected solution to a challenge, they're demonstrating that they're good players. If their solutions add to "good story", so much the better.

On the other hand, if such solutions mean that a planned encounter/situation suddenly becomes "no challenge", do we as DMs lower the effective challenge rating of the scene to reflect that perceived lack of challenge?

I forget the exact wording in the DMG, but experience is supposed to be rewarded for overcoming a challenge, whatever means are used to do so. If a monster is blocking your path, then finding a way to bypass it without ever having to encounter it counts as defeating it no less than charging in and killing it.
 

I forget the exact wording in the DMG, but experience is supposed to be rewarded for overcoming a challenge, whatever means are used to do so. If a monster is blocking your path, then finding a way to bypass it without ever having to encounter it counts as defeating it no less than charging in and killing it.

And I would argue that if you never know the monster is there, then you can't get experience from it. Otherwise, you need to give PC's experience for all the dangerous rooms that they don't enter. That dungeon that they don't enter. They need all the experience points for not entering that one too. And that one over there. And certainly the one they didn't enter there.

I will insist that experience points be connected to actual experience. Things that aren't part of the players story aren't part of his experience and thus no experience points are owed. Now, if on the other hand the party encounters a slumbering dragon, and sneaks around it without waking it - for that some experience is owed. Bilbo after all goes 'ding' just for agreeing to walk down into a dragon's lair, and ultimately ends up getting chased out after doing no damage and getting his toes burned. It's the experience that counts. He doesn't get any XP for avoiding the tower of the Necromancer, important though that may be, because it is not part of his experience.
 

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