D&D 5E Zard's Post Tasha's Archetype Tier List

[Mistwell]

I have found that the Alchemist really shines in groups with a lot of other spellcasters in. The elixirs really come into their own when you have a lot of other buffs in use.
What is the rest of your party doing while you are spending hours napping?

Well if you play an elf artificer alchemist / warlock, you only need 4 hours to get a long rest, and can spend the other 4 hours taking short rests.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Because if it's ranged and the steel defender can't attack your damage probably isn't much better than a valor Bard.

Just because you are ranged, doesn't mean that your Defender cannot be in melee, supporting a melee character.

You can use ranged weapons just as effectively as melee weapons.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just because you are ranged, doesn't mean that your Defender cannot be in melee, supporting a melee character.

You can use ranged weapons just as effectively as melee weapons.

True but in a pure ranged encounter your defenders useless.

Also see comments about a Archer ranger or fighter that's just going to be better. You're going to be an average Archer or slightly above vs good or great.

Good thing is you can switch to ranged when needed.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

True but in a pure ranged encounter your defenders useless.

In a pure ranged encounter, a melee-focused artificer's performance is also going to be somewhat degraded.

Also see comments about a Archer ranger or fighter that's just going to be better. You're going to be an average Archer or slightly above vs good or great.

I saw them, but I didn't see anything in them that would hold more true for using a melee weapon than a ranged weapon.

Your at-will damage compares fairly well to other base at-will damage. Artificers just tend to have less optimisation options to boost it beyond the base level. You're trading less personal DPR (and probably defence) for more support to the rest of your group.

 

[Zardnaar]

In a pure ranged encounter, a melee-focused artificer's performance is also going to be somewhat degraded.


I saw them, but I didn't see anything in them that would hold more true for using a melee weapon than a ranged weapon.

Your at-will damage compares fairly well to other base at-will damage. Artificers just tend to have less optimisation options to boost it beyond the base level. You're trading less personal DPR (and probably defence) for more support to the rest of your group.

Yeah there's other classes that can do both and support the party and do it better. Bards and Clerics come to mind but I'll cover them once I get to them.

 

[JackalTornMoons]

Just some artillerist notes since I've been playing one:

The area temp hp is bonkers strong at T1/T2 and can straight up trivialize most of them.

The turret is harder to kill than most people think. It has 18ac, benefits from the temp hp it gives, is considered a magical object (which means it's unaffected by spells that only target creatures), and you can stash the tiny one in your backpack.

And another thing to add to battle smith: they provide one of the few ways to stack Elven Accuracy with Great Weapon Master.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

My wife, who doesn't play D&D, was curious about the alchemist. She wanted to see if she could make something vaguely similar to Hilda Spellman from Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. I thought the alchemist might be the trick for that approach.

I'd be curious what the "most optimized" alchemist might look like? Unfortunately I imagine it would need to be multiclassed to really get some zing out of those lower level abilities. For example, the Elixirs are solid, but to choose which one you get you have to expend a first level spell slot. So multiclassing to another class which stacks on the low level spell slots would be critical. Fortunately, the elixir ability doesn't specify that it must be an Artificer spell slot, saying, "You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir’s effect from the Experimental Elixir table." I suppose that will also be dependent on short rests.

Though..I just realized an interesting exploit. Elixirs are good until your next short rest, and they essentially store a first level spell for use later. So...wouldn't an alchemist/warlock be able to make a massive number of elixirs when they wake up? Expend their spell slots to make elixirs, short rest to regain warlock spell slots, do it again, short rest, again, etc.. and you can start the day with a whole bunch of elixirs, right?

I don't see why that wouldn't work. I would normally advise against multiclassing for inexperienced players, but it would fit the idea of a potion making witch pretty well. I think it's more important that a character be fun and interesting than they be optimised, when bringing in new players. Three levels of alchemist and the rest warlock (fiend pact, obviously) would work well with this build. The Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion + Eldritch Blast should be awesome.

AS for playing a single class alchemist, bear in mind I have never played one, so I only know as much as @Zardnaar. However, here are my thoughts:

Your role is support. Do not expect to be in the thick of the action delivering smackdown. It's your job to provide the fighter with a magic sword, craft a bag of holding when the party finds a big pile of loot, or sending stones when they need to split up. Note that this is why @Zardnaar thinks they are late blooming. If your campaign is the type where 2nd level characters can walk into a shop and come out with three magic weapons and a bag of holding, then the artificer will be less useful at low level. However, if magic item distribution distribution is closer to a WotC adventure, then this is good at all levels. It's also worth noting that artificers excel in the exploration pillar. They can sub for a rogue at opening locks, and are often better than a rogue at dealing with traps. They are good for building a way across a chasm or a raging river of lava, and they are good at simply knowing stuff about practically anything. For this reason Guidance is an important cantrip for them to know. It's also worth reading the descriptions of artisans tools. Right Tool for the Job can be used to provide any part of these tool kits, which can then be abused for some different purpose entirely. For example Blacksmith's Tools contain a portable anvil, which can be used as a handy counterweight, or be dropped on an unsuspecting guard's head. Creativity is important for a good artificer player.

Homunculus Servant. Any artificer who doesn't get a pet from their subclass (Alchemist, Armorer) should get one of these ASAP. Not having one is like playing a chain pact warlock and not casting find familiar.

Elemental Elixir. Treat these like extra 1st level spells known. Also good for comedy.

Alchemical savant. Your Healing Words are great for whack-a-mole. Note that High Elf is a good racial selection. If you give your character 16 dex and a magic rapier one thing you can do for fun is jump into battle with Green Flame Blade. You have enough AC and hp to not be afraid of the front line, and you can use any of your infused items as a spellcasting focus.

Restorative Reagents. This is the alchemist's biggest weakness. You are really good at casting a spell that isn't needed very often. However, do note that Lesser Restoration ends ghoul paralysis and Mind Blast stun. No need to wait for them to wear off.

I won't go on to high level stuff.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't see why that wouldn't work. I would normally advise against multiclassing for inexperienced players, but it would fit the idea of a potion making witch pretty well. I think it's more important that a character be fun and interesting than they be optimised, when bringing in new players. Three levels of alchemist and the rest warlock (fiend pact, obviously) would work well with this build. The Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion + Eldritch Blast should be awesome.

AS for playing a single class alchemist, bear in mind I have never played one, so I only know as much as @Zardnaar. However, here are my thoughts:

Your role is support. Do not expect to be in the thick of the action delivering smackdown. It's your job to provide the fighter with a magic sword, craft a bag of holding when the party finds a big pile of loot, or sending stones when they need to split up. Note that this is why @Zardnaar thinks they are late blooming. If your campaign is the type where 2nd level characters can walk into a shop and come out with three magic weapons and a bag of holding, then the artificer will be less useful at low level. However, if magic item distribution distribution is closer to a WotC adventure, then this is good at all levels. It's also worth noting that artificers excel in the exploration pillar. They can sub for a rogue at opening locks, and are often better than a rogue at dealing with traps. They are good for building a way across a chasm or a raging river of lava, and they are good at simply knowing stuff about practically anything. For this reason Guidance is an important cantrip for them to know. It's also worth reading the descriptions of artisans tools. Right Tool for the Job can be used to provide any part of these tool kits, which can then be abused for some different purpose entirely. For example Blacksmith's Tools contain a portable anvil, which can be used as a handy counterweight, or be dropped on an unsuspecting guard's head. Creativity is important for a good artificer player.

Homunculus Servant. Any artificer who doesn't get a pet from their subclass (Alchemist, Armorer) should get one of these ASAP. Not having one is like playing a chain pact warlock and not casting find familiar.

Elemental Elixir. Treat these like extra 1st level spells known. Also good for comedy.

Alchemical savant. Your Healing Words are great for whack-a-mole. Note that High Elf is a good racial selection. If you give your character 16 dex and a magic rapier one thing you can do for fun is jump into battle with Green Flame Blade. You have enough AC and hp to not be afraid of the front line, and you can use any of your infused items as a spellcasting focus.

Restorative Reagents. This is the alchemist's biggest weakness. You are really good at casting a spell that isn't needed very often. However, do note that Lesser Restoration ends ghoul paralysis and Mind Blast stun. No need to wait for them to wear off.

I won't go on to high level stuff.

Clerics do most of that though, deal more damage, more spell slots and often better at skills.

I'm not opposed to support characters at all there's just more than a few classes that do it better.

Who I said I think it's late blooming.

1. Subclass abilities at 9
2. Better items at 10
3. The extra spells via item at 11.

It's around those levels they might start coming togather.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Clerics do most of that though, deal more damage, more spell slots and often better at skills.

I'm not opposed to support characters at all there's just more than a few classes that do it better.

We have been through this already. Sure, support classes like cleric/druid/bard/artificer overlap, just like fighters/paladins/rangers/barbarians overlap and wizards/sorcerers/warlocks overlap. But each can all do things the others cannot. For example alchemists are far better than a cleric in the exploration pillar, whist still being almost as good at healing. But parties DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE A CLERIC. You can take an artificer instead of a cleric, and/or instead of a rogue. In a party that has a cleric and a rogue already an alchemist will be less useful than in a party that does not (but still better than having two clerics or two rogues).

 

[Zardnaar]

We have been through this already. Sure, support classes like cleric/druid/bard/artificer overlap, just like fighters/paladins/rangers/barbarians overlap and wizards/sorcerers/warlocks overlap. But each can all do things the others cannot. For example alchemists are far better than a cleric in the exploration pillar, whist still being almost as good at healing. But parties DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE A CLERIC. You can take an artificer instead of a cleric, and/or instead of a rogue. In a party that has a cleric and a rogue already an alchemist will be less useful than in a party that does not (but still better than having two clerics or two rogues).

Our ones subbing rogue, not an alchemist though.

As I said the alchemists elixirs should be independent of its spell slots.