Zero to Hero!

[wlmartin]

One thing about 4th edition that's different is the fact that you start out as a hero. While this is good an all for some people, it's not something for me. Also, the chance to die at low levels is a bit lower when compared to other editions and that's fine if you like that sort of thing but I don't. For some reason I like it when the odds are stacked against me and I like to go from a nobody to the hero of the land.

I think what happens is it gives me more of an appreciation and a sense of fulfillment when I know I have beaten the odds and come out on top. I have played Wizards since 1st edition and whenever I ran out of spells I always had to think outside the box to help out the other party members and make use of what I had left and I really enjoyed that.

Do you like your characters to go from a dud to a stud or do you like starting out as the hero?

I do not know anyone that believes your characters start out as heroes at level 1.

I know the PC's are called Heroes but that is just a clever RP way of saying PC.

The Heroic Tier may be where you or others are getting confused. The idea is that by the END of the tier you rise up to be a Hero. The idea is that you are a relative unknown at level 1 and by level 10 you are well known and a Hero to the locals.

This is the real world equivalent of being a Hero in your local Town/City, ie what some local sports champions would enjoy.

Paragon is supposed to mimic Heroic Tier but now instead you become a relative unknown to the greater area of your land and by the end of the Tier, you are well known across the land.

This is the real world equivalent of being a hero in your local state or country and is a bit more ecompassing than the local town and would be more like the celebrity that state/national champions would enjoy.

Next and last is Epic Tier.. again this mimics the previous Tiers but now the entire world is the stage for your actions. At the start not everyone in the world knows who you are but by the end of Epic Tier your world shaking actions stretch to throughout the world.

This is the real world equivalent of being a hero in the world. A gold olympic medalist or Fifa World Cup Winning Team Player.


In regards to dying early in lower levels... If you really enjoy this more then there is an easy remedy - houserule!

If your DM is not keen to handicap the party by 10% HP etc then instead play more recklessly (rushing into combat more)

The main reason why you don't die at lower levels is that as a game, D&D was unbalanced back in the day. If you played a certain class it was like you did one thing and one thing alone, when that job was done you just sat around doing nothing...

...All the traps disabled, I will just sit here until I can backstab someone (said the Rogue)
...Everyone healed? Good - I'll just take a nap, call out when you need a heal (said the Cleric)
...Um, I am outta spells - I'll just use my invisible ring and keep outta your hair for now (said the Wizard)

If you wanted any consistency in previous editions you needed to play a Fighter / Paladin / Ranger / Barbarian type otherwise you were bored

With 4e, the game is now balanced. There is something for everyone to do each round.

The fighters get more choices than simply "I hit the monster" now they can use "Tide of Iron" or such cool powers and it feels more like they are performing tactical moves than just Hack+Slash.

The Casters get a good array of spells to cast, possibly not as MANY as in previous editions but at least they can never run out since they will always retain use of their At-Wills.

... I could go on but i'll leave the comparisons there

Yes, you die less
No, it isnt something invented just to make it easier for newbies joining the game and no, it isnt something invented to annoy old players.

In my opinion it is simply the result of a well thought out and balanced system that means that you don't need to GRIND 10 levels just to get a peek at the good stuff. Sadly, for you and perhaps some others it means that there is less sacrifice and toiling at lower levels however I have heard this argument before and there are 2 easy ways to resolve this

1 : Lower XP threshold for lower levels or Skip the first 5 levels.

You treat levels 1-5 as newbie levels, like the newbie / tutorial levels on a computer game... if you are new, you need them... if you are an old hat you don't. Everyone has to sit through them once but you can why not skip.
So : Either : Skip first 1-5 levels or make XP 50% quicker so you notice it less

2 : Handicap your PCs in the first 1-5 levels. Make monsters tougher without the benefit of extra XP earned. Cut everyones healing surges down and limit peoples Power thresholds (ie they get what they start at 1st and then get nothing more until 5th, where they then receive everything they were missing out on to catch them up)

Either option is possible but is completely idiotic IMO to pick any sort of handicapping for the sake of it. My suggestion? Skip the lower levels

 

[herrozerro]

I have to throw in my hat with the "It's what you make it feel" side.

I have started a few games above level 1 in which the PCs were ordinary people, and the players played the flavor accordingly. No one felt like they were heroes, even though they had a bunch of tricks up their sleves with powers the world as well was a scarier place.

Saying that 4e in general is bad about this is a misleading premise.

 

[Kinneus]

Which is true. I've never seen a character in 4e drop in a single attack. Earlier editions though, it was not an uncommon occurrence.

As others have said, 4e simply doesn't work this way. Everybody (with the exception of minions) is designed to take multiple shots before biting the dust.

I will mention, though, that I've frequently seen both PCs and monsters drop in a single turn. I've seen PCs do it to monsters, and monsters do it to PCs. Just last night, in fact, an Elite monster dropped our Level 10 Bard from full HP to unconscious in a single turn.

 

[Klaus]

How to make 1st level PCs feel like newbies:

- The first few encounters are higher level, and no minions. The first time they fight an orc, that orc is actually statted as an elite (not in-story, though... he's just a grunt, but compared to the PCs he's tough). Those initial fights are tough, and the PCs barely make it out alive.

- As the adventure progresses, lower the encounter level to smooth out the "level up" aspect of the PCs. The second fight with orcs include regular orcs. By the time you think your PCs should be considered heroes/veterans, you should include minions to reflect that.

The "zero to hero" aspect rest not in the PCs' character sheet, but on a comparison between that and the opposition presented by the DM.

 

[Spatula]

It seems strange to be putting all of this import on PCs getting dropped by one hit, when that is really only possibly in earlier editions for one level (or two for the low-hp classes). I suppose in AD&D it could go on for longer if you had really bad luck with hit point rolls, but in practice I never saw this crop up. DMs generally don't want the fighter running around with 2 HP any more than the fighter's player does.

And this is why in 3e, they gave everyone max HP at 1st level and drastically cut the XP required to get to level 2. Because for a lot people, getting killed by one hit when you're just starting out isn't fun.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

We have always given our PC's max hit points at every level since 1st edition. The rolling for HP was never our thing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm - I haven't seen even one TPK in 4e and we've been playing since it's release. Also, prior to epic level I've only seen 2 PCs die - and both were killed by other PCs. Post epic 3 PCs have died, but because of epic destinies - came right back.

The lack of TPKs seems to be my experience as well. In all of our groups, only the Irontooth encounter in week 2 ever resulted in a TPK and I chalk that up to player and DM learning curve (although we came real close in one PBP game last year because the DM really went out of his way to shut down PC options with terrain). Today, even with the increased damage of the monsters, most of the players I play with would chew out the Irontooth encounters. Especially with the plethora of improved capabilities (e.g. Essentials Strikers, feats, etc.).

PC deaths are fairly rare as well (although I just had 2 PCs die in PBP in a 21 round mega-final encounter of the adventure, but that was due to how tough the encounter was combined with many good NPC rolls and many poor PC rolls). Life has gotten more interesting once WotC bumped up the damage, but PCs just have so many good abilities with the sheer volume of options from so many books that death is pretty rare anymore. I have one DM that won't throw any encounters at us less than N+1 because we just chew through them so quickly.

I'm looking forward to DMing Lair Assault. Based on WotC hype, I suspect the number of deaths by it will be significantly higher than normal.

I also prefer 4E's "I can take more than one hit" approach and not one of a farmer becomes a warrior. My very first 1E PC Wizard died in round one of encounter one from a single arrow. That's not the way to introduce a player to the game system.

 

[brehobit]

Zero

I would claim it's pretty hard to manage the "just got off the farm" feeling of a PC party now days. It can be done (use martial power sources only is a good start), but it's tricky.

 

[Spatula]

For a "zero", give each character one hybrid class. With no daily power, so they get 1 at-will and 1 encounter. No feats (aside from the human bonus feat). 1/2 or 1/4 the starting gold. When they hit level 1, they get the rest of the class and the level 1 feat.

 

[Klaus]

For a "zero", give each character one hybrid class. With no daily power, so they get 1 at-will and 1 encounter. No feats (aside from the human bonus feat). 1/2 or 1/4 the starting gold. When they hit level 1, they get the rest of the class and the level 1 feat.

That is actually *very* elegant!