Zero to Hero!

[ForeverSlayer]

I see that as a bug, not feature. The cleric used one of his precious miracles... and you're still down and out. What's the thing with that?


And that's a good thing in my book. Why do we want the characters to die? Defeated, captured, disgraced, all good for the story. Dead? Not so much.

Death is just as important to the game as any other rule. Without death, it's not really much of a game anymore. Some people like that style of play, but not enough that Wizards would remove it from play. Without the idea of death hanging over your head it becomes boring because you know you will never lose.

Some say that there are other loses besides death and in D&D I don't really see that. You don't permanently lose levels, or stats anymore. If you fail at one quest there are many many others to do that will make up for it.

You do realize that without death hanging over your head tactics actually become moot. The reason we have tactics in 4th edition is to kill the enemy before they kill us. Combat tactics are all about using teamwork in order to survive the encounter. If you take away death, or make it too hard to obtain then those tactics are just there for the sake of it.

I understand that losing sucks, but it happens. I also understand that you die in video games and it sucks, but that's apart of the game and that is a part of D&D.

I also understand that it take a lot of work, effort, and patience to get a character all the way from 1-30 and dying at 29th level sucks. I know I have been there and done that, but I have always known that that could happen at anytime and it's what keeps me on my toes through all those levels. Having everything to gain with nothing to lose in a game, to me, is just boring.

 

[Oldtimer]

Death is just as important to the game as any other rule. Without death, it's not really much of a game anymore. Some people like that style of play, but not enough that Wizards would remove it from play. Without the idea of death hanging over your head it becomes boring because you know you will never lose.

Now you're attacking a straw-man. I never said we should abolish death. Death still happens in the game. The rule is still there. You don't need to argue about that.

I'm merely saying it should not be the primary method of defeat. I'm saying it's a good thing that you can lose and not be dead because of it.

The rule used to be that you didn't die until you were at -10. At low levels that not so different from the 4e rule of negative bloodied. At high levels the old rule just didn't do much - the new 4e rule simply scales the rule better into high levels. This is not a revolutionary change - it's simply fixing a very old rule that was in need of fixing.

 

[FireLance]

Death is just as important to the game as any other rule. Without death, it's not really much of a game anymore. Some people like that style of play, but not enough that Wizards would remove it from play. Without the idea of death hanging over your head it becomes boring because you know you will never lose.

Some say that there are other loses besides death and in D&D I don't really see that. You don't permanently lose levels, or stats anymore. If you fail at one quest there are many many others to do that will make up for it.

You do realize that without death hanging over your head tactics actually become moot. The reason we have tactics in 4th edition is to kill the enemy before they kill us. Combat tactics are all about using teamwork in order to survive the encounter. If you take away death, or make it too hard to obtain then those tactics are just there for the sake of it.

Maybe not for you, but I'm going to try to win my fights even if defeat doesn't end in death. I'm competitive enough that any form of loss rankles, even if it doesn't have any long-term impact on my character. You might as well argue that I wouldn't be motivated to win a game of chess unless my life was threatened!

 

[Kannon]

Death is just as important to the game as any other rule. Without death, it's not really much of a game anymore. Some people like that style of play, but not enough that Wizards would remove it from play. Without the idea of death hanging over your head it becomes boring because you know you will never lose.

I just have to pick this one out because it irks me just a little. Having just run a long campaign with PCs that were effectively immortal, there are many, many ways to fail besides death. In many ways, death is a mercy.

For example, my players failed, at the end of heroic tier, to stop a false-flag assassination in Ebberon. Spectacularly. Not only did several of them "die" (So they spent several days recovering where they discorporated to) powerless to stop the restarting of the Last War. Then those same characters had to go try and fix it. It'd have been much, much less taxing on the characters if death had been the end. (The players loved it though.) Essentially, it goes from "Oh, your character is gone, roll another", to making them actually handle the consequences for their failure. So, instead of a new character, you get 3 or 4 plot hooks.

Now, one can do this with excellent results without having immortal characters. But death doesn't come close to removing all the challenge.

Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[malraux]

We have always given our PC's max hit points at every level since 1st edition. The rolling for HP was never our thing.

Death is just as important to the game as any other rule. Without death, it's not really much of a game anymore. Some people like that style of play, but not enough that Wizards would remove it from play. Without the idea of death hanging over your head it becomes boring because you know you will never lose.

Some say that there are other loses besides death and in D&D I don't really see that. You don't permanently lose levels, or stats anymore. If you fail at one quest there are many many others to do that will make up for it.

You do realize that without death hanging over your head tactics actually become moot. The reason we have tactics in 4th edition is to kill the enemy before they kill us. Combat tactics are all about using teamwork in order to survive the encounter. If you take away death, or make it too hard to obtain then those tactics are just there for the sake of it.

I understand that losing sucks, but it happens. I also understand that you die in video games and it sucks, but that's apart of the game and that is a part of D&D.

I also understand that it take a lot of work, effort, and patience to get a character all the way from 1-30 and dying at 29th level sucks. I know I have been there and done that, but I have always known that that could happen at anytime and it's what keeps me on my toes through all those levels. Having everything to gain with nothing to lose in a game, to me, is just boring.

Admitting you rig the game to minimize death and then chastising others for doing the same is in poor taste, IMO.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Admitting you rig the game to minimize death and then chastising others for doing the same is in poor taste, IMO.

Max HP is not really bridging too much of a gap on character death. There is a big difference in giving max HP at each level than having to make 3 death saves, get to negative bloodied, as well as all the other bells and whistles that make death harder to achieve.

Also, there is making sense and a game and then there's going overboard. A Wizard walking around at 1st level with 1,2, or even 3 HP is a bit much.

Most of the time with max HP you could still be killed with one shot at 1st level in previous editions.

Don't sit there and try to turn this around back on me. Death is a part of the game and making it a little harder to achieve is fine, but making death something that's barely obtainable is where the problem is. 4th edition is by far the easiest to survive in. I'm not talking about lucking rolls from the bad guys and bad rolls from the good guys. I'm talking about your normal average career as a PC.

 

[S'mon]

This matches my experience. I've actually had more character deaths since I went to 4e than in the rest of my gaming...time(?) combined. In half as many years, no less.

*raises hand*

Me too! Me too!

4e really seems overall possibly the most lethal edition I've run. I did kill more PCs running 1e AD&D aged 14, but I was (even) more of a killer DM then. By contrast I ran a couple dozen online sessions of OSRIC recently without a single PC death. In 3e it was usually "Fighter dies, other PCs flee" but in 4e it goes like this:

r1:
"Regdar is down! He's at negative 30 hp!"
"Don't worry, I heal him back to + (Healing Surge+1d6)!"

r2:
"Regdar is down! He's at negative 30 hp!"
"Don't worry, I heal him back to + (Healing Surge+1d6)!"

r3:
"Regdar is down! Mialee is down! Lidda is down!"
""Don't worry, I heal them back to... *acck*!"

 

[Raikun]

As others have said, 4e simply doesn't work this way. Everybody (with the exception of minions) is designed to take multiple shots before biting the dust.

I've seen "4e doesn't work this way" or the like several times in this thread...and it's usually in response to someone saying the equivalent of "4e doesn't work this way." Just kinda strikes me as redundant. =)

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I just have to pick this one out because it irks me just a little. Having just run a long campaign with PCs that were effectively immortal, there are many, many ways to fail besides death. In many ways, death is a mercy.

For example, my players failed, at the end of heroic tier, to stop a false-flag assassination in Ebberon. Spectacularly. Not only did several of them "die" (So they spent several days recovering where they discorporated to) powerless to stop the restarting of the Last War. Then those same characters had to go try and fix it. It'd have been much, much less taxing on the characters if death had been the end. (The players loved it though.) Essentially, it goes from "Oh, your character is gone, roll another", to making them actually handle the consequences for their failure. So, instead of a new character, you get 3 or 4 plot hooks.

Now, one can do this with excellent results without having immortal characters. But death doesn't come close to removing all the challenge.

Just thought I'd point that out.

I don't understand what supposedly irks you here. So your characters were raised with a Raise Dead ritual or what?

Death still isn't the end I'm afraid. Like I said mentioned above, there is the Raise Dead ritual that any character may posses.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Let me take a brief moment to list the safety nets:

Second Wind.
Negative bloodied HP value.
3 death saves.
Healing Surges and many class and racial abilities that grant them.
Healing starts at 0 no matter how far down in the negatives you are.
Many classes that grant Temporary Hit Points.
Any class can use the Raise Dead ritual.

In previous editions only certain classes such as the Cleric and Druid could actually heal you. This is not the case anymore.