D&D 5E If the characters are super optimized should the monsters be boosted too?

Lord Vangarel

First Post
What level are the PCs? What races and classes and notable options do they have? An adult green dragon (CR 15) and two young green dragons (CR 8 each) have an adjusted XP value of 41,600 XP. By the numbers that's "Deadly" for up to four 18th level PCs (not that I think the numbers are all that accurate when it comes to actual play). What were the other elements of the scene - terrain, use of lair actions, monster goals, PC goals, etc.? Are you bringing your A-game when making choices for the monsters? Are you doing things that force the players off their standard operating procedure and onto their backup plan? How many fights did they get into that day prior to this scene?

Was the scene fun for both you and the players? Did it tell an exciting, memorable story? Your objections seem to be centered around the scene not lasting as long as you would like or not doing enough damage to the characters. What's your metric for determining when a scene is long enough or damaging enough?

Personally, I don't generally change monsters. But I do present scenes that involve more than a race to 0 hit points. This allows for even crummy monsters to present a challenge to players with optimized characters. I could suggest some ideas to you using the green dragon encounter as an example, but need some more information.

Ok some background information:

6 PC's, all 10th level.

1 Battlemaster Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and Sharp Shooter so good at both melee and ranged. Has a sword that was part of the module that is very overpowered giving +2d6 damage per attack.

1 Life Cleric.

1 Barbarian. Rage is ridiculously good giving resistance on all damage but psychic making the character very difficult to hurt.

1 Warlock.

1 Evoker Wizard.

1 Paladin.

They also have Protection from Poison items meaning a successful save results in one quarter damage from the dragon's breath weapons.

Average hit points for them all come in around 90 with the highest and lowest about 25 either side. The paladin, fighter, and cleric all have 20 AC.
 

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Warbringer

Explorer
Treat these guys as a 13-14th level party.

Party size+50% standard
Hit points ~ +30% standard (average 65 10th (d8 con +2)
DPS feels around +20-30% standard (pure guess)

Get the feeling they also have high stats. What's their total pluses (standard +7)
 

Vael

Legend
I'm starting to think about maximizing Monster HP, but my concerns are less about optimized party, then having a large party, 6-8 PCs.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Ok some background information:

6 PC's, all 10th level.

1 Battlemaster Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and Sharp Shooter so good at both melee and ranged. Has a sword that was part of the module that is very overpowered giving +2d6 damage per attack.

1 Life Cleric.

1 Barbarian. Rage is ridiculously good giving resistance on all damage but psychic making the character very difficult to hurt.

1 Warlock.

1 Evoker Wizard.

1 Paladin.

They also have Protection from Poison items meaning a successful save results in one quarter damage from the dragon's breath weapons.

Average hit points for them all come in around 90 with the highest and lowest about 25 either side. The paladin, fighter, and cleric all have 20 AC.

For this group, I think it comes down to how the lair is set up, the lair actions, and the dragons attacking in a hit-and-run fashion. I'd set up the lair as a thorny hedge maze, rife with traps, under a dense canopy of trees. The characters would need something at the maze's center and would only have so much time to get to it before they fail to achieve their goal.

Green dragons are cunning and tricky, so I'd run the dragons where they would mostly lurk up in the heavily-obscured canopy and periodically strike out at a straggler (hopefully the cleric) with bite (10 ft. reach), tail (15 ft. reach), or breath weapon and then fall back and hide in the canopy again. The dragons would also use the grasping roots and wall of tangled brush lair actions to stymie the ranged characters and to separate the group. The magical charm-cloud lair action I'd reserve for the barbarian though the paladin's aura might be troublesome especially if it's a devotion paladin. With that charm, I'd tell the barbarian to run off somewhere in the maze and get lost for a while or put him or her on a path toward a trap. I'd probably send the young dragons in to snatch and eat the "protection from poison" items if that is feasible, then fly away.

So here we have both exploration and combat pillars in this challenge all while under time pressure. The dragon smack-talking the PCs the whole time would make for great social interaction and I might even suggest that the dragon could be outsmarted and goaded into a direct confrontation with the PCs rather than hit-and-run tactics. This opens up another path for players to take to defeat the dragon. In anyc ase, it's still likely the PCs will succeed, but I'd do my level best to make them pay for every inch of ground they cover in a fun, exciting, memorable way.
 

Lord Vangarel

First Post
For this group, I think it comes down to how the lair is set up, the lair actions, and the dragons attacking in a hit-and-run fashion. I'd set up the lair as a thorny hedge maze, rife with traps, under a dense canopy of trees. The characters would need something at the maze's center and would only have so much time to get to it before they fail to achieve their goal.

Green dragons are cunning and tricky, so I'd run the dragons where they would mostly lurk up in the heavily-obscured canopy and periodically strike out at a straggler (hopefully the cleric) with bite (10 ft. reach), tail (15 ft. reach), or breath weapon and then fall back and hide in the canopy again. The dragons would also use the grasping roots and wall of tangled brush lair actions to stymie the ranged characters and to separate the group. The magical charm-cloud lair action I'd reserve for the barbarian though the paladin's aura might be troublesome especially if it's a devotion paladin. With that charm, I'd tell the barbarian to run off somewhere in the maze and get lost for a while or put him or her on a path toward a trap. I'd probably send the young dragons in to snatch and eat the "protection from poison" items if that is feasible, then fly away.

So here we have both exploration and combat pillars in this challenge all while under time pressure. The dragon smack-talking the PCs the whole time would make for great social interaction and I might even suggest that the dragon could be outsmarted and goaded into a direct confrontation with the PCs rather than hit-and-run tactics. This opens up another path for players to take to defeat the dragon. In anyc ase, it's still likely the PCs will succeed, but I'd do my level best to make them pay for every inch of ground they cover in a fun, exciting, memorable way.

Great ideas iserith, unfortunately the setup was part of a module and I just added two young dragons to make things a bit more difficult. If I was designing from the ground up then something like this would be great.

My main concern is not just dragons however, all the monsters seem to be too squishy.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Great ideas iserith, unfortunately the setup was part of a module and I just added two young dragons to make things a bit more difficult. If I was designing from the ground up then something like this would be great.

My main concern is not just dragons however, all the monsters seem to be too squishy.

What module/scene was it? Did the writer just stick the green dragons in a big open clearing?

Also, did the players have fun? Did you? Did the fight contribute to an exciting, memorable story?
 

Lord Vangarel

First Post
What module/scene was it? Did the writer just stick the green dragons in a big open clearing?

Also, did the players have fun? Did you? Did the fight contribute to an exciting, memorable story?

Rise of Tiamat, green dragon and Neronvain in the Misty Forest. A cave complex where the dragons did hit and run tactics until the party finally pinned them down in the last cavern. On route they fought a number of other encounters but generally they're destroying everything I put in their path and the short rest mechanic means they restore an awful lot of resources between encounters.

Yes generally they did have fun but we had a discussion at the end about how things are panning out and I expressed how things seemed to be getting too easy for them. I've already bumped monster hit points significantly and am now wondering whether I bump attack bonuses and damage as well to keep pace. It's almost like if there's a few monsters then numbers are ok, however if there's a small number then they need extra stuff to compete like 4E solos and elites.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Rise of Tiamat, green dragon and Neronvain in the Misty Forest. A cave complex where the dragons did hit and run tactics until the party finally pinned them down in the last cavern. On route they fought a number of other encounters but generally they're destroying everything I put in their path and the short rest mechanic means they restore an awful lot of resources between encounters.

Ah, okay. I haven't run that one yet though I own it. I'll give it a read.

Yes generally they did have fun but we had a discussion at the end about how things are panning out and I expressed how things seemed to be getting too easy for them. I've already bumped monster hit points significantly and am now wondering whether I bump attack bonuses and damage as well to keep pace. It's almost like if there's a few monsters then numbers are ok, however if there's a small number then they need extra stuff to compete like 4E solos and elites.

Did the players agree that things were getting too easy for them? Did they suggest anything they could do to keep the difficulty of challenges at a more satisfying level?

With six players, it's probably a good assumption that you need multiple monsters in any given conflict as they have so many actions and options to bring to bear on the opposition. I don't think increasing monster hit points is necessarily a good solution. That just extends the length of the combat - maybe - and doesn't significantly increase difficulty in my experience. There's also something to the idea that if you start increasing attack bonuses and damage, the players will just start to do the same (to the extent they can), creating an arms race. If you're not already doing so, consider looking at encounters as less a race to get the enemy to 0 hit points, but rather a race to see who can complete their particular goal first. That has the effect of making the players' choices for their builds and such important, but their choices and priorities in the moment more important and interesting. They may come away from the scene having lost zero hit points yet having been significantly challenged.
 

Dragonsbane

Proud Grognard
Damn that's a nice scenario with the green dragon and the maze and him taunting the PCs verbally the whole time :)

Also, in some situations, such as hit-and-run over the course of a day, make sure the monsters/bad guy does NOT let them rest, or at least make it tough. Attacking them while resting can really mess up a party that is overly reliant on resting.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Tune encounters for maximal fun. If players are bored because they aren't challenging, make them stronger. If they are getting wiped, make them easier. If they don't feel like they are getting bette, throw them a low level encounter so they can mop the floor and feel good.

Get tougher when some characters are optimized in directions others aren't. And even there just work with the player. Got one defensive-optimized character in a game I run. But he's not hogging spotlight, he's keeping others up so they can do cool things. Works out just fine.
 

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