D&D comes to Middle Earth (from Cubicle 7)

SilentWolf said:

No, I'm not sarcastic.

Only in this last two years I've started to dig seriously into the OGL and SRD question. Until a few years ago, I've never considered this topic. Now I can say I have learned something about the legal issues, but I'm unaware about how companies have managed the legal limits until now.
That's why I thought it would be more difficult for Cubicle 7 to design a D&D setting without directly refer to D&D material. Especially considering the difference between the D&D 3.x SRD and the 5e one.

Happy to know the problem it's smaller that I thought.

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If it's any help, there are thousands of OGL games, settings, and supplements which use the OGL. Thousands is probably an underestimate. An entire industry has been churning them out for nearly two decades. Head over to DTRPG or RPGNow and pick up one or two. I suggest Mutants & Masterminds for an example of how the system can be stretched beyond anything Middle Earth would require. Or, more selfishly, Elements of Magic for how an entirely new magic system for D&D can be designed. These are pre-5E examples, of course, but it's the exact same license.

More recently, Primeval Thule is a 5E setting using the OGL. The OGL doesn't mention any game mechanics.

Reynard said:

To game this out a little, I think an OGL version will look like this:

Characters: a discussion of appropriate SRD character races and classes and some new setting specific subclasses, subraces and background.

Magic: an overhaul.

Equipment: a brief discussion regardibg money systems and equipment that is not available.

Inspiration: how to makes goals, flaws etc... fit the setting.

Monsters: a list of what fits from the SRD and a few new/restatted creatures.

Magic Items: similar to monstrs since there are a fair number of them in the books.

New Rules: we will see a portof some of the most interesting and ground breaking TOR rules. It will also directly address the core D&D daily action economy.

Thoughts?

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That's basically the same outline I'd use were I heading up the project - not that such a statement means all that much.

If this is not a Kickstarter, it is on my Gen Con list

Hand of Evil said:

If this is not a Kickstarter, it is on my Gen Con list

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Not going to be a Kickstarter, so it seems you and I will be in that very, very long line at Gen Con to buy the book!

Canonical Peoples in the late Third Age

I prefer that C7 pack the book full, covering all the canonical peoples who exist in the late Third Age. Don't drag it out over a bunch of sourcebooks. Use the sourcebooks to detail new peoples, places, and details in the West-lands, in Rhun, Harad, and beyond. And even though C7 can't refer to any name which isn't found in The Hobbit or LotR, I prefer that all these peoples be included somehow - even if it's done by circumlocutions (like how Decipher referred to the seven houses of the Dwarves by another name, since the actual name is only found in The History of Middle-earth.)

Here is an updated list of all the canonical peoples who are known or supposed to exist in the late Third Age, along with some close extrapolations of canon (such as melding the various bits of info we have about the Avarin). Many people confuse and mix in peoples invented by Iron Crown Enterprises for MERP. But my list is straight from JRRT's books--though with some artistic and ethnological coherence applied. If I missed any let me know. If you want quotes for proof, let me know, and I'll post the quotes.

Peoples:

Hobbits:
• Shire-hobbit [=1897-era Warwickshire geographically, but culturally all counties of England; for example, Yorkshire in the Hills of Scary, the West Midlands and Welsh Marches in the East Farthing and the Marish, and Warwickshire (specifically) around Hobbiton.] By the late Third Age, the three hobbit breeds of Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide are hardly more distinct than Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in 1897-era England.
• Buckland-hobbit [=1897-era Monmouthshire, Wales]
• Bree-hobbit [=1897-era Buckinghamshire, the location of the real world "Brill/Bree-hill" and "Coombe"]
• Outsider-hobbit from the West of the World [=Remnants of other counties of 1897-era England]
• Wild-hobbit of the River Gladden [=900-era West Saxons]

Elves:
• High Elf (Noldo) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, or in Aman
• Grey Elf (Sinda) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien)
• Wood Elf (Nando Silvan Elf) from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, from the Wandering Companies of Eriador, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien). These are the native elves of Eriador and of Rhovanion (along with the Penni Avari). The Wood Elves of Dol Amroth sailed to Aman. The language (to the extent it survives) is, or was, Leikvian (East-Danian), an Old Norse-flavored Elvish. In one place JRRT says the language is no longer spoken, but in another place he says that it is the main language of Thranduil's Realm. So for diversity's sake, it might as well still exist in the Woodland Realm.
• Sea Elf (Teleri/Falmari) from Alqualonde, or from Tol Eressëa
• Fair Elf (Vanya) of the Blessed Realm
• Green Elf of Lindon. (Cwenda Nando). Possibly merged with the Grey-elves of Lindon by the late Third Age. Or possibly not. Either way, there are families of that ancestry. (The Cwenda/West-Danian/Ossiriandic/Ossiriandeb) language is Old English-style Quendian.)
• Red Elf of the North Pole. Though depicted in the Father Christmas Letters, they are perhaps are already there in the late Third Age. They will not have "diminished" in size yet.
• Penni (Avari Silvan Elf) from Lorien, or from the Woodland Realm. The Penni and Nando are both called "Silvan/Wood Elves", and they are possibly, though not necessarily, merged by the late Third Age. They are the native elves of Rhovanion/Wilderland, along with the Nandor. (The Penni language is Gaulish-style Quendian.)
• Hill Elf (Cuind) of the West of East? (The language is Old Irish-style Quendian. I equate them with the "Hill-elves" mentioned in The Hobbit because the Hill-men of Dunland are likewise the Old Irish-flavored Men. Though these Hill Elves would presumably live in some hills in Rhun--perhaps in the hills depicted by JRRT to the north of the Sea of Rhun.)
• Twilight Elf (Hwenti/Hisildi) of the Midmost Regions (Palisor) (Hwenti = Gothic-style Quendian; the Hisildi of Palisor are the ones who first spoke to Ermon and Elmir, thereby imparting the quasi-Germanic phonaesthetic flavor to the first Mannish language.)
• Windan of the the North of East? (Old English?-style Quendian)
• Kindi of the South of East? (Hindi-style Quendian)
• Kinn-lai of the East of East? (Chinese-style Quendian)
(The Hobbit mentions "mountain-elves" -- they would be equated to one of these Avari peoples.)

Dwarves:
• Longbeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains, of the Grey Mountains, of the Iron Hills, or of the Lonely Mountain (after the War of the Ring: of Dwarrrowdelf, or of the Glittering Caverns)
• Firebeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Broadbeam Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Ironfist Dwarf of the East
• Stiffbeard Dwarf of the East
• Blacklock Dwarf of the East
• Stonefoot Dwarf of the East
(The Hobbit mentions "Wicked Dwarves of the East"; so at least one of these houses is under the shadow. The Petty-dwarves of Beleriand are presumed extinct.)

Mannish cultures are reminiscent of 900-AD, except for those of Eriador (minus the Dunedain), which are 1897-era.
• Dunadan of the North [=remnants of the Arthurian, Carolingian, and Holy Roman realms]
• Bree-man [=1897-era Buckinghamshire]
• Man of the Hunter-folk of Eryn Vorn [=1897-era Cornishmen, speak Westron by late Third Age]
• Man of the Forsaken Inn [=remnant of 1897-era Hertfordshire]
• Beorning of the Upper Vales [=Bernicians of Northumbria]
• Horse-lord of Rohan [=Mercians]
• Lake-man of Esgaroth [=Geats of Lake Vättern]
• Dale-man [=Svear of Dalecarlia]
• Northman from West of Dale, or from South of Dale [=Norwegians or Danes]
• Woodman of Western Mirkwood, of the Middle Vales, or of the Lower Vales [Western Mirkwood=Germans: Old Saxons in the northern town, Old Franconians in the southern town; Middle Vales =Mercian remnants + newly arrived Saxons and Franks; Lower Vales = Westron-speaking Franks of West Francia]
• Man of Dorwinion [=Georgians, the land of wine and youth]
• Man of Gondor [=Byzantines]. The difference between High Men and other Gondorians is, by the late Third Age, of only slight distinction.
• Snowman of Forochel [=Skridfinns/Saami]
• Man of the Fisher-folk of Western Enedwaith [=Cruithne of Ireland]
• Wose of Druadan Forest [=Picts of Thrace/Agathrysi]
• Pukel-man of Druwaith Iaur [=Picts of France/Aquitani]
• Dunlending [=Old Irish]
• Man of Nurn [=Armenian]
• Corsair of Umbar, or from the Havens of Harad [=Ottomon Arabs of Tripoli and the other Barbary Coast kingdoms+900-era Saracen Arab-Berber coastal realms]
• Variag from Khand, or from the Wide East [=Varangian Northman from Khazaria, or from Rus]
• Man of Khand [=Khazar]
• Black Numenorean from Umbar, from Near Harad, or from Far Harad [=Copt]
• Vinith of Eastern Mirkwood, of Southern Mirkwood, of the Bight, or of Northern Rhovanion [=Western Slav: Wend/Polabian/Lusatian, Slovene, Czech/Moravian, or Pole]
• Near Southron [=Arab/Saracen]
• Easterling from the Horse Plain, or from the Kine Plain [=Hungarian/Magyar or Cuman]
• Far Southron (Troll-man, Silharrow, Elephant-lord, or Sun-dweller) [=Fur, Ethiopian, Ghanaian, or Kongo]
• Man of Angmar (Kern, Gallowglass, Redshank, Hillman, or Reiver) [=Scots: Highland Gael, Norn, Pict, Cumbrian, or Lowland Scot. The Hillmen of Rhudaur (=Cumbrians of Rheged) wered totally destroyed, but there would still be akin Hillmen in southwestern Angmar proper, equivalent to the Cumbrians of Strathclyde.]
• Man of the Balchoth of Southern Rhovanion [=Bulgars]
• Axe-Easterling from the Wide East [=Rus]
• Worm-Easterling from the East of East [=Chinese] In a draft of The Hobbit, JRRT referred to Were-worms from China! The Men who live among the Were-worms would be "Worm-men" or "Worm-Easterlings."
• Man of “Greenland” [=Inuit] (yes, “Greenland” itself is visited by Earendil in a draft in the Book of Lost Tales.)
• Man of the “Hindu Kush” or South of East [=Asian Indian] (In a draft of the Hobbit, the Hindu Kush mountains are mentioned]
• Man of the New Lands (Wild Islands, Lands of the Sun, the Burnt Lands, Easternesse) [=Indigenous Americans]
• Pygmy of the Great Forest of the South [=Twa]
• Man of the Dark Land (Southland) [=Australian Aborigines, Melanesians, and other peoples of "Lemuria."]

Every kind of Man (including the notorious Black Numenoreans) should be a playable PC option, even in an "all-good" company."The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" attests to there being good men throughout Rhun and Harad, for Aragorn "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good..."

Other kindreds with role-playing potential, such as awakened Kelvar and Olvar and fays:

• Ent of Fangorn
• Ent-wife of the East
• Tree-man of Far Harad
• Stone-giant
• Animals which are portrayed as speaking or understanding speech: Giant Eagle, Raven, Crow, Thrush, Horse/Pony, Cattle, Dog, Cat, Wolf, Badger, Fox, Polar Bear
• Fays/Spirits/Sprites: Fire-fay, Sylph (Mánir "spirits of the air" and Súruli "spirits of the winds), Oarni "spirits of the sea"/"mermaid"), Falmaríni "spirits of the sea-foam", River Spirit (River-woman, River-daughter), Flower Fay, Brownie, Pixie, Leprawn, Nermir "fays of the meadows"; Tavari/Dryad "sprites of trees and woods", Nandini "fays of the valleys", Orossi "fays of the mountains"

double post

Gadget said:

I can't say I'm so cavalier as Morris is about this. OGL publishers have been doing it for sixteen years, but not under this particular OGL and not with this SRD. I was hoping for a bit of mechanics to go along with this book to make it more Tolkienesque, not merely 'Just another setting book'. Not being able to tweak the game rules much (or having to reinvent the wheel) does lesson my initial enthusiasm a bit.

Click to expand...

The One Ring absolutely nails the Tolkien-esque feeling. So going for the same thing would both be redundant and cannibalize their other line.

I also don't think they actually need to change the rules, just the character options including spells. I'd like to see them create:

1) New races from the ground up.
2) One new sub-class for each class with appropriate class abilities. (Maybe exclude Warlock; the base class is a tough fit.)
3) Entirely new spell lists.
4) Maybe tweak weapons and armor lists and introduce some Tolkien-esque feats.

Would it be exactly like Tolkien? No. You'd get to play elven wizards and dual-wielding Hobbit murderhobos, if that's what you like. But I think that's fine. Folks who want to be purists can play TOR.

Then all they have to do is create a bunch of new monsters, and they're set to start cranking out sourcebooks and adventures.

I would buy all of it (as well as all the TOR stuff).

TraverseTravis said:

I prefer that C7 pack the book full, covering all the canonical peoples who exist in the late Third Age. Don't drag it out over a bunch of sourcebooks. Use the sourcebooks to detail new peoples, places, and details in the West-lands, in Rhun, Harad, and beyond. And even though C7 can't refer to any name which isn't found in The Hobbit or LotR, I prefer that all these peoples be included somehow - even if it's done by circumlocutions (like how Decipher referred to the seven houses of the Dwarves by another name, since the actual name is only found in The History of Middle-earth.)

Here is an updated list of all the canonical peoples who are known or supposed to exist in the late Third Age, along with some close extrapolations of canon (such as melding the various bits of info we have about the Avarin). Many people confuse and mix in peoples invented by Iron Crown Enterprises for MERP. But my list is straight from JRRT's books--though with some artistic and ethnological coherence applied. If I missed any let me know. If you want quotes for proof, let me know, and I'll post the quotes.

Peoples:

Hobbits:
• Shire-hobbit [=1897-era Warwickshire geographically, but culturally all counties of England; for example, Yorkshire in the Hills of Scary, the West Midlands and Welsh Marches in the East Farthing and the Marish, and Warwickshire (specifically) around Hobbiton.] By the late Third Age, the three hobbit breeds of Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide are hardly more distinct than Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in 1897-era England.
• Buckland-hobbit [=1897-era Monmouthshire, Wales]
• Bree-hobbit [=1897-era Buckinghamshire, the location of the real world "Brill/Bree-hill" and "Coombe"]
• Outsider-hobbit from the West of the World [=Remnants of other counties of 1897-era England]
• Wild-hobbit of the River Gladden [=900-era West Saxons]

Elves:
• High Elf (Noldo) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, or in Aman
• Grey Elf (Sinda) from Lindon, from Rivendell, from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien)
• Wood Elf (Nando Silvan Elf) from Lorien, from the Woodland Realm, from the Wandering Companies of Eriador, or in Aman (and after the War of the Ring: Ithilien). These are the native elves of Eriador and of Rhovanion (along with the Penni Avari). The Wood Elves of Dol Amroth sailed to Aman. The language (to the extent it survives) is, or was, Leikvian (East-Danian), an Old Norse-flavored Elvish. In one place JRRT says the language is no longer spoken, but in another place he says that it is the main language of Thranduil's Realm. So for diversity's sake, it might as well still exist in the Woodland Realm.
• Sea Elf (Teleri/Falmari) from Alqualonde, or from Tol Eressëa
• Fair Elf (Vanya) of the Blessed Realm
• Green Elf of Lindon. (Cwenda Nando). Possibly merged with the Grey-elves of Lindon by the late Third Age. Or possibly not. Either way, there are families of that ancestry. (The Cwenda/West-Danian/Ossiriandic/Ossiriandeb) language is Old English-style Quendian.)
• Red Elf of the North Pole. Though depicted in the Father Christmas Letters, they are perhaps are already there in the late Third Age. They will not have "diminished" in size yet.
• Penni (Avari Silvan Elf) from Lorien, or from the Woodland Realm. The Penni and Nando are both called "Silvan/Wood Elves", and they are possibly, though not necessarily, merged by the late Third Age. They are the native elves of Rhovanion/Wilderland, along with the Nandor. (The Penni language is Gaulish-style Quendian.)
• Hill Elf (Cuind) of the West of East? (The language is Old Irish-style Quendian. I equate them with the "Hill-elves" mentioned in The Hobbit because the Hill-men of Dunland are likewise the Old Irish-flavored Men. Though these Hill Elves would presumably live in some hills in Rhun--perhaps in the hills depicted by JRRT to the north of the Sea of Rhun.)
• Twilight Elf (Hwenti/Hisildi) of the Midmost Regions (Palisor) (Hwenti = Gothic-style Quendian; the Hisildi of Palisor are the ones who first spoke to Ermon and Elmir, thereby imparting the quasi-Germanic phonaesthetic flavor to the first Mannish language.)
• Windan of the the North of East? (Old English?-style Quendian)
• Kindi of the South of East? (Hindi-style Quendian)
• Kinn-lai of the East of East? (Chinese-style Quendian)
(The Hobbit mentions "mountain-elves" -- they would be equated to one of these Avari peoples.)

Dwarves:
• Longbeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains, of the Grey Mountains, of the Iron Hills, or of the Lonely Mountain (after the War of the Ring: of Dwarrrowdelf, or of the Glittering Caverns)
• Firebeard Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Broadbeam Dwarf of the Blue Mountains (or other Dwarf-holds of the West)
• Ironfist Dwarf of the East
• Stiffbeard Dwarf of the East
• Blacklock Dwarf of the East
• Stonefoot Dwarf of the East
(The Hobbit mentions "Wicked Dwarves of the East"; so at least one of these houses is under the shadow. The Petty-dwarves of Beleriand are presumed extinct.)

Mannish cultures are reminiscent of 900-AD, except for those of Eriador (minus the Dunedain), which are 1897-era.
• Dunadan of the North [=remnants of the Arthurian, Carolingian, and Holy Roman realms]
• Bree-man [=1897-era Buckinghamshire]
• Man of the Hunter-folk of Eryn Vorn [=1897-era Cornishmen, speak Westron by late Third Age]
• Man of the Forsaken Inn [=remnant of 1897-era Hertfordshire]
• Beorning of the Upper Vales [=Bernicians of Northumbria]
• Horse-lord of Rohan [=Mercians]
• Lake-man of Esgaroth [=Geats of Lake Vättern]
• Dale-man [=Svear of Dalecarlia]
• Northman from West of Dale, or from South of Dale [=Norwegians or Danes]
• Woodman of Western Mirkwood, of the Middle Vales, or of the Lower Vales [Western Mirkwood=Germans: Old Saxons in the northern town, Old Franconians in the southern town; Middle Vales =Mercian remnants + newly arrived Saxons and Franks; Lower Vales = Westron-speaking Franks of West Francia]
• Man of Dorwinion [=Georgians, the land of wine and youth]
• Man of Gondor [=Byzantines]. The difference between High Men and other Gondorians is, by the late Third Age, of only slight distinction.
• Snowman of Forochel [=Skridfinns/Saami]
• Man of the Fisher-folk of Western Enedwaith [=Cruithne of Ireland]
• Wose of Druadan Forest [=Picts of Thrace/Agathrysi]
• Pukel-man of Druwaith Iaur [=Picts of France/Aquitani]
• Dunlending [=Old Irish]
• Man of Nurn [=Armenian]
• Corsair of Umbar, or from other Havens [=Arab/Saracen of Tripoli and the other Barbary Coast kingdoms]
• Variag from Khand, or from the Wide East [=Varangian Northman]
• Man of Khand [=Khazar]
• Black Numenorean from Umbar, from Near Harad, or from Far Harad [=Copt]
• Vinith of Eastern Mirkwood, of Southern Mirkwood, of the Bight, or of Northern Rhovanion [=Western Slav: Wend/Polabian/Lusatian, Slovene, Czech/Moravian, or Pole]
• Near Southron [=Arab/Saracen]
• Easterling from the Horse Plain, or from the Kine Plain [=Hungarian/Magyar or Cuman]
• Far Southron (Troll-man, Silharrow, Elephant-lord, or Sun-dweller) [=Fur, Ethiopian, Ghanaian, or Kongo]
• Man of Angmar (Kern, Gallowglass, Redshank, Hillman, or Reiver) [=Scots: Highland Gael, Norn, Pict, Cumbrian, or Lowland Scot. The Hillmen of Rhudaur (=Cumbrians of Rheged) wered totally destroyed, but there would still be akin Hillmen in southwestern Angmar proper, equivalent to the Cumbrians of Strathclyde.]
• Man of the Balchoth of Southern Rhovanion [=Bulgars]
• Axe-Easterling from the Wide East [=Rus]
• Worm-Easterling from the East of East [=Chinese] In a draft of The Hobbit, JRRT referred to Were-worms from China! The Men who live among the Were-worms would be "Worm-men" or "Worm-Easterlings."
• Man of “Greenland” [=Inuit] (yes, “Greenland” itself is visited by Earendil in a draft in the Book of Lost Tales.)
• Man of the “Hindu Kush” or South of East [=Asian Indian] (In a draft of the Hobbit, the Hindu Kush mountains are mentioned]
• Man of the New Lands (Wild Islands, Lands of the Sun, the Burnt Lands, Easternesse) [=Indigenous Americans]
• Pygmy of the Great Forest of the South [=Twa]
• Man of the Dark Land (Southland) [=Australian Aborigines, Melanesians, and other peoples of "Lemuria."]

Every kind of Man (including the notorious Black Numenoreans) should be a playable PC option, even in an "all-good" company."The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" attests to there being good men throughout Rhun and Harad, for Aragorn "went alone far into the East and deep into the South, exploring the hearts of Men, both evil and good..."

Other kindreds with role-playing potential, such as awakened Kelvar and Olvar and fays:

• Ent of Fangorn
• Ent-wife of the East
• Tree-man of Far Harad
• Stone-giant
• Animals which are portrayed as speaking or understanding speech: Giant Eagle, Raven, Crow, Thrush, Horse/Pony, Cattle, Dog, Cat, Wolf, Badger, Fox, Polar Bear
• Fays/Spirits/Sprites: Fire-fay, Sylph (Mánir "spirits of the air" and Súruli "spirits of the winds), Oarni "spirits of the sea"/"mermaid"), Falmaríni "spirits of the sea-foam", River Spirit (River-woman, River-daughter), Flower Fay, Brownie, Pixie, Leprawn, Nermir "fays of the meadows"; Tavari/Dryad "sprites of trees and woods", Nandini "fays of the valleys", Orossi "fays of the mountains"

Click to expand...

Petty dwarves are a thing as well

Edit: I'm not sure how to delete a post and I see that you have petty dwarves mentioned after all.

SilentWolf said:

I'm a little sorry about that.
Not only with a regular OGL they cannot use some of the most interesting D&D 5e rules

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Since I think a succesful book needs new classes anyway, I consider this good news rather than bad.

What I mean is: the more they build upon the existing PHB framework, the more like regular D&D the results will be.

And the more like regular D&D the results are, the less successful the book will be in attaining the feel of LOTR.

By the way, for those unacquainted with The One Ring, here is a lovely introduction, showing off much Jon Hodgson's wonderful art: https://slate.adobe.com/cp/ENNV5/