D&D 5E Bonus action spell cast and readying to cast a spell

Undrhil · Mar 1, 2017

If I cast a bonus action spell, can I then ready to cast a normal 1-action spell in the event that some event happens?

In my case, I was looking at using Misty Step to get somewhere and then readying to cast Chromatic Orb when a bad guy came through a door.

I don't think it works since to ready to spell you essentially start casting it then, but the final release of the spell is on another creature's turn, so it's no longer your turn.

Does casting the bonus action spell prevent the preparatory casting for readying or just the actual casting of the 1-action (non-cantrip) spell?

Dausuul · Mar 1, 2017

From the text of the Ready action (PHB 193): "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction."

From the text on bonus action spells (PHB 202): "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

That seems pretty clear, insofar as anything around bonus action spells is clear. Readying chromatic orb requires casting it "as normal," that is, on your turn; you can't do that if you've cast misty step on the same turn; so your first reading is correct, this does not work.

Li Shenron · Mar 1, 2017

I think the RAI of bonus action spells goes a little bit like this:

- spells are powerful abilities, should normally be limited to 1 per round

- a spell uses a bonus action when it is meant to be allowed in combination with an attack

- many cantrips are similar to attacks, so it's ok to allow them too

- to simplify, let's allow all cantrips anyway

The consequential RAI is IMHO that there should never be 2 non-cantrip spells cast in the same round with normal combat rules, only in some very special case related to specific abilities (like a multiclass Fighter/spellcaster using Action Surge, or a monster that is purposefully designed to break these rules).

CapnZapp · Mar 1, 2017

Problem is, of course, that casting two cantrips per round is unbalanced and overpowered too.

It's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Fanaelialae · Mar 1, 2017

CapnZapp said:
Problem is, of course, that casting two cantrips per round is unbalanced and overpowered too.

It's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Only a sorcerer can cast two attack cantrips per round, and even then only if they take quicken spell as one of their limited selections of metamagic, and only within the limits of their limited sorcery points (presumably they aren't going to burn all of their spell slots just to spam cantrips because in many circumstances, such as when you need to cast shield or fireball, that is a highly detrimental tactic). Even for single target damage, something like scorching ray is going to give you better damage than two cantrips, at least at the levels you're likely to be using 2nd level spells offensively.

In the case of most casters, it's going to be casting a bonus action spell (misty step) and then casting a cantrip, rather than casting two cantrips.

While not all "warrior" classes get it, the fighter is able to use Extra Attack as a free action once per short rest (twice at higher levels). Which is better than getting it as a bonus action, since it allows you to also get your off hand attack if dual wielding.

CapnZapp · Mar 1, 2017

Fanaelialae said:
Only a sorcerer can cast two attack cantrips per round, and even then only if they take quicken spell as one of their limited selections of metamagic, and only within the limits of their limited sorcery points (presumably they aren't going to burn all of their spell slots just to spam cantrips because in many circumstances, such as when you need to cast shield or fireball, that is a highly detrimental tactic). Even for single target damage, something like scorching ray is going to give you better damage than two cantrips, at least at the levels you're likely to be using 2nd level spells offensively.

In the case of most casters, it's going to be casting a bonus action spell (misty step) and then casting a cantrip, rather than casting two cantrips.

While not all "warrior" classes get it, the fighter is able to use Extra Attack as a free action once per short rest (twice at higher levels). Which is better than getting it as a bonus action, since it allows you to also get your off hand attack if dual wielding.

I'm sorry, but that is the limited view that makes this feature appear reasonable.

I wasn't talking about Action Surge and I didn't mean once per short rest.

I did mean exactly what I said: "it's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action"

When I said "as a bonus action" I meant EVERY round of EVERY combat ALL day long.

How so?

Well, what you really would do in actual play, is create a Warlock 2/Sorcerer X character that picks Agonizing Blast as an invocation, and Quicken Spell as a metamagic.

Then the key is to not cast any non-cantrip spells at all - instead you convert all your spell slots to sorcery points, and then you can put a LARGE amount of sorcery points into Quicken Spell.

The result is that you can cast two Eldritch Blast at 1d10+5 all day long, every round (barring unusually strange adventuring days). At level 5, this becomes four blasts and a 4d10+20 damage potential. At level 11, this becomes six blasts and a 6d10+30 damage potential. At level 17, you're looking at 8d10+40 damage using only cantrips.

This blows every weapon user clean out the water, except possibly GWM/SS feat users.

This is what I meant

Barolo · Mar 1, 2017

CapnZapp said:
I'm sorry, but that is the limited view that makes this feature appear reasonable.

I wasn't talking about Action Surge and I didn't mean once per short rest.

I did mean exactly what I said: "it's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action"

When I said "as a bonus action" I meant EVERY round of EVERY combat ALL day long.

How so?

Well, what you really would do in actual play, is create a Warlock 2/Sorcerer X character that picks Agonizing Blast as an invocation, and Quicken Spell as a metamagic.

Then the key is to not cast any non-cantrip spells at all - instead you convert all your spell slots to sorcery points, and then you can put a LARGE amount of sorcery points into Quicken Spell.

The result is that you can cast two Eldritch Blast at 1d10+5 all day long, every round (barring unusually strange adventuring days). At level 5, this becomes four blasts and a 4d10+20 damage potential. At level 11, this becomes six blasts and a 6d10+30 damage potential. At level 17, you're looking at 8d10+40 damage using only cantrips.

This blows every weapon user clean out the water, except possibly GWM/SS feat users.

This is what I meant

But this tactic isn't really "at will", it does cost resources. And while it can be good for single target nova, the Warlock 2/Sorcerer X would probably be better off spending their spell slots and sorcery points doing something else on several occasions.

Taking from your own example, at level 5 a Warlock 2/Sorcerer 3 can do the trick only once before starting to need to break spell slots. They can pool in all their slots for a grand total of 11 sorcery points, or 5 extra uses, totaling 6 times before a rest, earning one more use per rest. A pure fiend warlock 5 is already fireballing their enemies away at this level, and can do that twice per rest. A pure sorcerer 5 can likewise fireball or twin haste the group barbarian and paladin. If the sorcerer only cared about fireballing, they could do that 5 times without resting by breaking spell slots and burning sorcery points.

At higher levels, this probably can become "at will" in practice, but casters have nicer and nicer toys to play with, and pure casters are always 1 spell level ahead of said multiclass combo (at least until level 19).

CapnZapp · Mar 1, 2017

Barolo said:
But this tactic isn't really "at will", it does cost resources.

...

At higher levels, this probably can become "at will" in practice

So... it doesn't really cost resources in practice, then

but casters have nicer and nicer toys to play with, and pure casters are always 1 spell level ahead of said multiclass combo (at least until level 19).

Sorry but now you're comparing to Wish and that is simply irrelevant.

What I did was compare the rule on "only a cantrip after casting a bonus action spell" to FIGHTERS, and specifically "it's just as if there were a way for martials to use Extra Attack as a bonus action".

If you really mean to say "yes, that seems right" feel free to actually do that

Xetheral · Mar 1, 2017

Li Shenron said:
I think the RAI of bonus action spells goes a little bit like this:

- spells are powerful abilities, should normally be limited to 1 per round

- a spell uses a bonus action when it is meant to be allowed in combination with an attack

- many cantrips are similar to attacks, so it's ok to allow them too

- to simplify, let's allow all cantrips anyway

The consequential RAI is IMHO that there should never be 2 non-cantrip spells cast in the same round with normal combat rules, only in some very special case related to specific abilities (like a multiclass Fighter/spellcaster using Action Surge, or a monster that is purposefully designed to break these rules).

If that was what was intended, they failed to make the rules match: they're much more restrictive than that.

As it stands, if you cast any bonus action spell at all, even a cantrip, you're limited to only casting cantrips for the rest of the turn. Even if you use Action Surge, you still can't cast a levelled spell. Conversely, the rule fails to stop casting two levelled spells in a round when neither one is a bonus action (i.e. an action and a reaction), unless you also cast a bonus action spell the same round.

Here are some examples of situations where your RAI interpretation doesn't match the RAW:

Shillelagh and Fireball
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

Shillelagh and Shield
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

Action Surge: Fireball and Fireball and Counterspell
Your RAI: Not Allowed
RAW: Allowed

Action Surge: Fireball and Fireball and Shillelagh
Your RAI: Allowed
RAW: Not Allowed

zaratan · Mar 1, 2017

"Ready action" still part of the same turn (Oficial Sage Advice in Wizards website), so, no, you can't do that.

Same thing with sneak attack for ready action, if you did with your bonus action in your turn, you can't do it again with ready action, because is the same turn.

D&D 5E Bonus action spell cast and readying to cast a spell

Undrhil

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Dausuul

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Li Shenron

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CapnZapp

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Fanaelialae

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CapnZapp

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Barolo

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