Ridding Elves and Half-Elves of Darkvision

Charlaquin said:

I agree that it's really, really dumb that dragonborn don't have darkvision. Dragons have it, kobolds have it, why not dragonborn?

Click to expand...

Even stranger is that both half-dragons and drakes get darkvision too

CapnZapp said:

...
This discussion is about whether Elves and Dwarves should have the *same* kind of superior sight.

Click to expand...

Back in the old days, you had infravision and ultravision representing the ability to see in the infrared and ultraviolet spectrums, respectively. That's no longer how things see in the dark in D&D, and we now have darkvision instead. That means, necessarily, that we have to have a new wavelength added to the electro-arcano-magnetic spectrum, right? This actually makes a fair bit of sense, and solves a few other problems along the way.

D&D magic and spellcasting taps into a sort of background radiation that suffuses the worlds, like The Force in some ways. 5th Edition products call this "the weave," though I think it must be more chaotic except in certain extraordinary areas, like ley lines. Darkvision, then, must be an ability to perceive Octarine (the color of magic) along with the normal visible spectrum. Much like the presence of magic suppresses the need for technological innovation and lets the worlds of D&D persist for millenia in a state of flux between iron age and Renaissance levels of development, so too would it influence the evolution of species and provide an option for gods and titans who undertake to shape races of followers. If you need to see in the dark, evolving the ability to see Octarine gives you a big advantage.

Clearly, magical radiation doesn't have the same properties as light, which is why darkvision typically only extends to 60 ft. It scatters, bouncing off of itself. The ability of dark elves and others to see up to 120 ft isn't the result of a refinement in the eye, necessarily, but it more likely reflects an advancement in the visual center of the brain that allows a creature to interpret the octarine vista, cutting through the interference and boosting the signal like modern radar equipment compared to older cold war models.

Thinking of darkvision as an ability to see in octarine also leads to a better understanding of the ecology of the underdark. In a realm without sunlight, how can life flourish? Simple: arcanosynthesis. Simple is the right word for it, actually, because the power of the background magical radiation is much less than that of sunlight, and therefore the fundamental building block of deepearth food chains is primordial algae, lichens, and maybe ferns that have replaced photosynthesis with an ability to spin sugar out of magic. The weakness of octarine relative to the visible spectrum is why bright light fouls your darkvision, as well.

The big problem with seeing in a magical spectrum is that you can now see magical effects and spells, right? Well, not necessarily. Spells don't radiate magical energy, they draw in the magic and hold it to be used or released in other ways. There might be an octarine burst in a fireball, but you're gonna see that fireball in other ways first. You might think then that you would see a spell being cast as a dark spot as it draws in the magic that powers it, but that's like drinking seawater at the bottom of the ocean--you can't darken weave more easily than you can make a dry place below the Nyr Dyv. Possible, sure... but not easy. Anyway, magic doesn't have to obey familiar physical laws, which is why it's called magic. It's behavior as a particle, wave, or medium should remain somewhat mysterious and unintuitive.

All that aside, of course dragonborn should have darkvision. That seems like a no-brainer. I also think there is no reason to remove or replace darkvision in elves, because darkvision is a DM's friend. Whenever a party is relying on darkvision, they are limiting themselves to dim light. This makes it much easier to spring hidden things upon them, including traps and ambushes. Dwarves moving through the underdark using darkvision is like humans moving along above ground under a full moon without any other light source, which is to say they're asking for trouble.

epithet said:

I also think there is no reason to remove or replace darkvision in elves, because darkvision is a DM's friend. Whenever a party is relying on darkvision, they are limiting themselves to dim light. This makes it much easier to spring hidden things upon them, including traps and ambushes. Dwarves moving through the underdark using darkvision is like humans moving along above ground under a full moon without any other light source, which is to say they're asking for trouble.

Click to expand...

Despite the intriguing effort you spent delving into how darkvision works and Underdark ecology feeds, it was this that I gave XP for, this reminder that the players are partly hamstringing themselves if they rely on Darkvision and encouraging DMs to exploit that. Very nice.

chillybones said:

Even stranger is that both half-dragons and drakes get darkvision too

Click to expand...

Exactly!

epithet said:

A bunch of stuff, and a Pratchett reference

Click to expand...

I love all of this. I might steal it.

Charlaquin said:

I love all of this. I might steal it.

Click to expand...

You can't steal what is offered freely. I am delighted that you caught the Pratchett reference.

Caliburn101 said:

Everything and its dog has Darkvision in 5th Edition - it's ridiculous - a very foolish design decision. WotC have added to the mass of DV races by adding it in nearly every statblock. It's like a 'filler' ability these days.

Click to expand...

And, in stunning irony, cats don't have darkvision.

Kobold Stew said:

The flip side of this is that "historically" darkvision removed the problem of darkness, but in 5e it doesn't -- even with darkvision, in 5e you suffer disadvantage on all perception checks.

That's huge, and even parties with darkvision need to use light sources regularly.

Click to expand...

I think we forgot that detail the first 2 years we played 5th edition, so they were marching around in total darkness with no penalty. I finally noticed and had to tell the group we had been doing it wrong.

And, for what is is worth, I would almost want to remove Darkvision from the damn game, it becomes a horrible crutch players use, and when X people have it, and Y don't, it just gets more complicated. I'd much, much rather see it relegated to magic, or the rare race that actually lives all the time underground, but then would suffer penalties in daylight.

doctorbadwolf said:

Darkvision only goes out to 60ft. You can do all of that in 5e.

I have ambushes in darkness all the time in my games. I also had to do the same things to accomplish that in older editions, because PCs always had to have light sources to move around in total darkness, and had trouble seeing in low light.

The drow assassins attack just before the torchlight reaches them, or in the space between when they can see their prey and their prey can see them using heir respective darkvision. It works fine.

Click to expand...

The vast majority of monsters cannot close a full 60ft and attack in the same round, which limits your options using darkness to ambushes using ranged attacks in the vast majority of cases, or with great stealth rolls where close-up fighting is preferred.

This is a limitation - whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Having Darkvision so widely available has taken something away from every DM's narrative and gameplay toolset - and hasn't added anything in return - once again, whether you care about it or not.

I do care about it - because if a game mechanic takes something away, I want to see something else as compensation. What does Darkvision do to compensate me for my restricted options for the use of darkness as an atmospheric narrative tool (you can feel the breath of the creature upon you but cannot see it...) or as a gameplay tool (daggers fly out of the dark alleyway 20ft away and you are caught entirely by surprise *rolls with advantage + sneak attack bonus*).

Previous editions of D&D did just fine without so very many creatures with Darkvision. 5th Edition didn't need for any reason to go in this direction and didn't add anything good in doing so. This was a simplified mechanic that didn't need simplifying. In fact, Low Light Vision is mechanically simpler and more intuitive in terms of narration.

That is the point of contention here. So if you can think of a reason Darkvision makes the game better, or simpler than the use of LL Vision, or adds more than it takes away, then please make those points, with some reasoned logic and examples.

Simply telling us that you can still ambush people in the dark using the rules as written does not acknowledge that it cannot be done as creatively or with as many options as an ambush in the dark without Darkvision, and doesn't tackle the crux of the argument. It's akin to saying that a wobbly wheel on your bike is just fine because you can still peddle and get somewhere on it.