D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

gyor · Jun 4, 2019

Fenris-77 said:
There is some underrated utility in the Sorcerer class in Social Interaction pillar games. Obviously as a CHA character the Sorcerer will tend to be better at the skill side of things, but I'm more indexing Subtle Spell. Casting in social situations without permission is generally a no-no but the Sorcerer is way better equipped to manage it than the Wizard. Metamagic also does a really nice job buffing control spells in various ways, which is also great for SIP games. Not a huge thing, but in a campaign where it matters, it matters a lot.

I know we aren't really talking about MC here, but dipping 3 in Warlock for Tome and Book of Shadows really does close the overall utility gap between Sorcerer and Wizard a lot.

Simply taking Ritual Caster: Wizard feat is even enough to achieve this.

Ashrym · Jun 4, 2019

5ekyu said:
An observation - if my plan with sorc for meta magic was to cast a few powerful spells boosted with meta magic, feeding lower slots for points... I would be more inclined to go warlock where I get a pair of top tier slots that recover every short rest plus known spells plus invocations I can change each level.

It's been a bit so not sure if anything changed in your opinions, but burning low level slots to fuel higher level metamagic is only part of the point that was being made. It's important because it's an option when it matters, but the reverse is also true in burning a single high level slot to fuel more low level slots or create more low level slots.

The key is in using the ability effectively based on the situation.

The other point I would make is the warlock doesn't have the meta effect while the sorc can meta any level spell. Warlocks having a minimum level slot is not a replacement for metamagic.

5ekyu · Jun 4, 2019

TwoSix said:
Some reasons why Wizards are somewhat overrated compared to Sorcerers:

1) The difference in spells prepared versus spells known isn't actually that large. From levels 1-11 (i.e. the majority of most games), the difference is the wizard's Int mod - 1. (Wizards get Level + Int mod, Sorcerers get Level +1). An extra 2 to 4 spells is noticeable, but it's not an overwhelming difference.

2) One of the wizard's better features is the ability to cast rituals directly from their spellbook without prepping. Which means to maximize that feature, you want the difference between your spellbook limit and your spell prepped limit to be predominantly rituals. To maximize the wizard's flexibility at swapping spells at a long rest means having less rituals. Two of their stronger features are inherently in tension.

3) Long rests don't actually happen that often compared to leveling. This is DM dependent, but if you follow the DMG XP rules and the 6-8 encounters per long rest guidelines, you'll level probably every 2 long rests, 3 at the most. The sorcerer gets 2 new spells every level (1 gained, 1 swapped), which is just as much high level flexibility as a wizard has (which also gains 2 new max level spells every level).

4) The difference between the Wizard and Sorcerer is more about volume than quality. Wizards gets a lot of interesting rituals and some good exploration spells, but there aren't a lot of top-tier spells that are wizard specific. Maybe Simulacrum, but that's high level and already problematic.

This was pretty divided up but I prefer to book it down to what is seen at the table.

A 5th level wiz wit 18 into has dead minimum 14 leveled spells known and can have available for use 9 prepared plus all their non-prepared rituals. The 9 can change every long rest - daily. This allows things like "a travel set", a "town set" and a "fight set". It gets worse as wizards kerp getting teo more known per level free.

A 5th level sorc has 6, known, available total six.

This ignores any bonus spells from scribing.

The. 6-8 between rests thing even in its misconstrued "reqiirement" portrayal does not normally get construed as somehow preventing rests other than those in a "danger set of encounters" so being able to swap out between different legs of missions I'd not thst uncommon, certainly not enough to try and put the daily prepare into comparison to the per level swap one sorcs have.

So, if your adventure starts say with encounter on road to town (travel set in place), then get into town getting more adventure and hooks (town set loaded next day unless its urgent right now run out). Then key up "adventure set" before leaving on a hook etc. That's likely gonna be much more than the sorc's 6 known can do, much more than the 9 plus rituals may seem.

There will be variances between tables, but looking at the published APs, there are a lot of chances for long rests swaps as info is gained and various stages of the adventure transition.

To me, this is even seen with the divines too,

So, yeah, its about volume and about how often you can dial-in needed features.

I do not believe the sorc has a problem with white room spread sheet output. It's more in the actual play-thru adventure stuff that it hits problems imo.

As a player-side thing, going forward, I plan to use the alternate spellbook options to capture the kind of things "sorcerer fluff" opens up while keeping the wizard's mechanics- ditching the "closeted bookworm" arch type for more fun without suffering actual play issues of the blah sorcerer mechanics. Between bard and wizard options, easy to find z lot of fun with less strangling mechanics,

CapnZapp · Jun 4, 2019

gyor said:
I've heard that Wild Sorcerer's can be really fun with the right allies and DM.

Absolutely.

Any class can be plenty of fun. But we weren't discussing fun.

gyor · Jun 4, 2019

CapnZapp said:
Absolutely.

Any class can be plenty of fun. But we weren't discussing fun.

It can also be powerful.

gyor · Jun 4, 2019

5ekyu said:
This was pretty divided up but I prefer to book it down to what is seen at the table.

A 5th level wiz wit 18 into has dead minimum 14 leveled spells known and can have available for use 9 prepared plus all their non-prepared rituals. The 9 can change every long rest - daily. This allows things like "a travel set", a "town set" and a "fight set". It gets worse as wizards kerp getting teo more known per level free.

A 5th level sorc has 6, known, available total six.

This ignores any bonus spells from scribing.

The. 6-8 between rests thing even in its misconstrued "reqiirement" portrayal does not normally get construed as somehow preventing rests other than those in a "danger set of encounters" so being able to swap out between different legs of missions I'd not thst uncommon, certainly not enough to try and put the daily prepare into comparison to the per level swap one sorcs have.

So, if your adventure starts say with encounter on road to town (travel set in place), then get into town getting more adventure and hooks (town set loaded next day unless its urgent right now run out). Then key up "adventure set" before leaving on a hook etc. That's likely gonna be much more than the sorc's 6 known can do, much more than the 9 plus rituals may seem.

There will be variances between tables, but looking at the published APs, there are a lot of chances for long rests swaps as info is gained and various stages of the adventure transition.

To me, this is even seen with the divines too,

So, yeah, its about volume and about how often you can dial-in needed features.

I do not believe the sorc has a problem with white room spread sheet output. It's more in the actual play-thru adventure stuff that it hits problems imo.

As a player-side thing, going forward, I plan to use the alternate spellbook options to capture the kind of things "sorcerer fluff" opens up while keeping the wizard's mechanics- ditching the "closeted bookworm" arch type for more fun without suffering actual play issues of the blah sorcerer mechanics. Between bard and wizard options, easy to find z lot of fun with less strangling mechanics,

The Sorcerer isn't trying to be "Batman" aka the Wizard. You don't need a different collection of spells for every pillar of the game, you have team mates or minions for that.

CapnZapp · Jun 4, 2019

5ekyu said:
I do not believe the sorc has a problem with white room spread sheet output. It's more in the actual play-thru adventure stuff that it hits problems imo.

Yes, of course the wizard is significantly more flexible than the sorcerer; trying to argue otherwise is absurd when the wizard can replace his entire list every long rest. Even considering the abstract argument that sorcerers do get to replace their entire spell list (if they want), players have much more influence over when long rests happen than when level-ups happen.

TwoSix · Jun 4, 2019

5ekyu said:
I do not believe the sorc has a problem with white room spread sheet output. It's more in the actual play-thru adventure stuff that it hits problems imo.

Well, I can only speak to my own experiences. I've played a sorcerer from level 5 to level 16 over 2 years and about 30 sessions. I'm also currently playing a wizard in one of my games. There are times when I've appreciated the breadth of rituals available to me as a wizard. I've certainly appreciated arcane recovery. Swapping spells is nice, but it hasn't prevented me from having times where I've looked at my spell list and said "Oh, if only I had prepared this spell!" (Something I often said when playing my sorcerer, substituting learned for prepared.) And I've certainly missed being able to twin a buff spell, or quicken a spell while dashing or casting a cantrip.

If one wants to make an argument that the sorcerer could use a few more sorcery points, or a few more metamagic options, or some better subclass features, sure, I'm on board. I think the wizard is probably a little better, overall, although a sorcerer is a better MC option. My main disagreement is that I think the core concept of the sorcerer is the limited spell selection, and that limited spell selection is FUN. It forces you to make hard choices while leveling, and it forces you to make the best decisions in play while choosing among suboptimal choices. The wizard has some of that, also, but it simply feels less impactful because it's easier to fix.

CapnZapp · Jun 4, 2019

gyor said:
It can also be powerful.

Sorry but it is time to cut to the chase here - all that means is that the base Sorcerer class is powerful. Implying that the subclass itself brings much to the table is not going to impress anyone. No minmaxer ever would give up what Draconic gives you just to get what Wild mage gives you.

CapnZapp · Jun 4, 2019

TwoSix said:
My main disagreement is that I think the core concept of the sorcerer is the limited spell selection, and that limited spell selection is FUN. It forces you to make hard choices while leveling, and it forces you to make the best decisions in play while choosing among suboptimal choices.

Not entirely on topic but the biggest flaw of the Sorcerer isn't what you get but what you don't get. Just think about it for a minute - what cool archetypal characters do you think of when you imagine sorcery?

In actual play, it basically boils down to this: any choice that isn't inspired by having a red dragon as ancestor carries a penalty of being a mechanically inferior one. The PHB class brings remarkably little mechanical encouragement for variety.