Azzy
ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
So, the class is fine as long as you keep it within a narrow scope that pretty much makes spelll selection samey regardless of subclass?
D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think
Same not necessarily. There is room for different styles. Not to the extent there could be.
If I were to make any suggestions I would expand the sorcerer spell list to be more accomodating in order to match a theme. Case by case, possibly permanently.
I would also allow a feat to give 1 metamagic ability from the list and 2 sorc points to power it. That doesn't overshadow the ability when other classes pick it up but can help sorcs a fair bit.
I would make a subclass that includes selecting extra spells known, bonus sorc points, and maybe a bonus metamagic instead of other subclass abilities. That responds to a lit of complaints as a trade off as long as the bonuses are in line with what's given up.
Those all seem reasonable. My point is the class is effective regardless of the issues that it has.
If I were to make any suggestions I would expand the sorcerer spell list to be more accomodating in order to match a theme. Case by case, possibly permanently.
I would also allow a feat to give 1 metamagic ability from the list and 2 sorc points to power it. That doesn't overshadow the ability when other classes pick it up but can help sorcs a fair bit.
I would make a subclass that includes selecting extra spells known, bonus sorc points, and maybe a bonus metamagic instead of other subclass abilities. That responds to a lit of complaints as a trade off as long as the bonuses are in line with what's given up.
Those all seem reasonable. My point is the class is effective regardless of the issues that it has.
Immoralkickass
Adventurer
I disagree. Ritual Casting alone makes Wizards better than Sorcerers. Combine with Wizards' ability to learn more spells, which translates to learning more rituals, sorcerers just cannot measure up. Versatility IS power.
Metamagic is incredibly overrated. Their balance is way off, there are the obvious good ones, which most people take, and the bad ones that nobody bothers. Then they are limited by the small pool of Sorcery Points, which is used to fund certain subclass powers, or used to create spell slots. The net result is having less features than it seems. For example at Level 3, you think you have Font of Magic and Metamagic? But you only have 3 Sorcery Points. If you spend them on Heightened metamagic (which may still fail), then you cannot use Font of Magic. Then once you hit Level 6, there is more competition for the Sorcery Points.
Do you know how to make a sorcerer feel stupid? Look at this spell list, if he has Shield/Mage Armour or both, give him a Staff/Wand that can cast them. He'll have to level up twice before he can replace both spells.
'I dont need Knock because my party Rogue has thief tools'. That's not a good argument. You always don't need something, until you actually do. What if the Rogue left the party or died?
If I had to choose one magic man, it would be the Wizard.
Metamagic is incredibly overrated. Their balance is way off, there are the obvious good ones, which most people take, and the bad ones that nobody bothers. Then they are limited by the small pool of Sorcery Points, which is used to fund certain subclass powers, or used to create spell slots. The net result is having less features than it seems. For example at Level 3, you think you have Font of Magic and Metamagic? But you only have 3 Sorcery Points. If you spend them on Heightened metamagic (which may still fail), then you cannot use Font of Magic. Then once you hit Level 6, there is more competition for the Sorcery Points.
Do you know how to make a sorcerer feel stupid? Look at this spell list, if he has Shield/Mage Armour or both, give him a Staff/Wand that can cast them. He'll have to level up twice before he can replace both spells.
'I dont need Knock because my party Rogue has thief tools'. That's not a good argument. You always don't need something, until you actually do. What if the Rogue left the party or died?
If I had to choose one magic man, it would be the Wizard.
Curious as to what spell you cast as a ritual for your fights that impacts them more than metamagic.
Sorc damage builds are popular because of metamagic. They are not necessarily pure sorcs but metamagic is the clear factor. It's hard to call that over-rated. I do agree not all metamagic choices are equal value but all it really takes is working with one good one. Twin is an example of an excellent one because it's cheap on low level spells and increases damage and/or allows concentration on two targets.
If there are obvious good ones, as you say, they are obviously good. Your argument is that the whole system is bad because there are obvious good choices made and other choices exist?
Your comment on heighten makes no sense because if the heightened spell fails anyway then casting the same spell from another class would have also failed. There's no getting around the fact that heighten decreases the rate of failing to land a spell.
Prepping more spells than a sorc knows does not chajge how often spell slots used fail or save; heighten does.
I have to question your experience with the class, tbh. Your argument sorc points limit use but ignore burnng a spell slot for more sorc points. If the sorc needs another spell slot, he can create that second level slot for 3 points or a first level slot and still apply a meta; or the sorc can apply all the sorc points on enhancing up to half his or her daily slots with a 1pt meta on 3 spells; or the sorc can burn a second level slot after using 2 sorc points and end up applying a 1pt enhancement to 5 slots.
Selectively picking an expensive meta applied in a scenario with low points requires the assumption the character will not be built efficiently and the versatility in sorc point conversion will not be used effectively. Reimagine it as burning a third level slot to increase the chances of landing a fifth level spell against a critical opponent because that is far more likely in the event points are running low.
You claimed versatility is power and then missed how versatile the sorc point system actually is in how the points can be applied.
I don't take mage armor. I usually go dragon. To me it's just a spell slot lost to playing a wizard without armor. On that same note, it's not really different than giving any other character something he or she might not want or need. For example, how useful is giving a wand of mage armor to a dwarf wizard wearing armor?
If it's extra castings of spells I use regularly it's still the equivalent of more castings. If it's not then why did it come to me instead of another party member who might use it? Why wouldn't I give it to another party member who might need it? If no one in tbe party needs or wants it why wouldn't I barter it away?
It's an irrelevant point. The difference in using something of intrinsic value like those wands only changes how I make use of that value in a worst case scenario. Having something of value isn't worse than not having that same item. You are clearly reaching.
I have a better argument. I don't need knock because it sucks. Who needs a rogue to open locks anyway? If I really wanted to invest in opening locks I would just learn the proficiency somehow. I don't take knock on any spell caster.
It's always nice to have more spells available. That much is true. The problem is that there will always be that one spell that might have come in handy but all arcane casters cannot have all spells at any given time. Only clerics and druids have that luxury.
I counter with facts here
- the wizard is limited by slots available
- the wizard is limited by spells prepared
- for a spell to be useful the situation must first present the opportunity
- for the opportunity and prepared spell to coexist the wizard must first know of the opportunity and have the availability to prepare it and give up another prepared spell in exchange
- the other prepared spell given up is being prepped becaused it's commonly used instead of rarely used
Rituals don't directly impact important fights, prep can situationally be useful but metamagic is very commonly useful, and in the end at high levels a wizard prepares only about a single spell per spell level over what a sorc knows. The versatility in the wizard gets over-rated.
If that's wgat you prefer then play it. No one will make you play a sorc. Wizards were my first choice in most previous editions but in 5e they gave become my last for arcane casters.
Immoralkickass
Adventurer
Who said rituals are for combat? They are for utility. But if you want, Find Familiar is a good scout and can use the Help action, and Rary's Telepathic Bond to a certain extent, depending on situation and creativity. Leo's Tiny Hut gives a safe place for long rest if the party desperately needs one.
Metamagic is overrated because it doesn't do what it markets itself to be. Take a look at the excerpt from the PHB: Whatever their goals, sorcerers are every bit as useful to an adventuring party as wizards, making up for a comparative lack of breadth in their magical knowledge with enormous flexibility in using the spells they know. But is it really? Metamagic does jack to the spells other than making them more powerful (Twin/Empower), or more reliable (Heighten). They are no substitute for the utility that different spells bring. Do you deny the fact that every party would love to have Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Comprehend Languages? Sorcerers can only cast one of them, but without Ritual Casting. I bet you would reply that you don't need those spells to get by. Well technically you don't need weapons or armour or spells to defeat your enemies too, so why dont you just go adventuring naked?
How could I forget Font of Magic? It was supposed to be Sorcerers answer to Wizard's Arcane Recovery. Yet, if they spend their Sorcery Points on anything but creating spell slots, they would have less spell slots than Wizard. And you are asking them to burn spell slots for Sorcery Points? Do you see how the Sorcerer is always at a net negative compared to other classes? They are the only full caster (besides Bard, but they have lots of skills and expertise) with no Ritual Casting, least spells known, cannot swap out Metamagic, only can swap 1 spell on level up... and now less spell slots/class features due to all of them sharing the same resource. Don't just compare them to Wizards. A Cleric has Ritual Casting, can change spell list daily, have more spells known, is better thematically (Domain spells - don't you wish Sorcerers have them?), deal more damage and have heavy armour. Their spell damage is also more reliable (Radiant is less resisted compared to Fire/Lightning/Ice/Poison).
You are right, i was trying to be funny. I'll give you this one.
Besides Subtle, most metamagic tends to be for combat. Out of combat, Sorcerers can't replace the Wizard. Is that clear? I think you need to recount the number of prepared spells for wizard, because it is a lot more than sorcerers spells known, and not get stuck at 15 max. Also, ritual spells dont need to be prepared.
Bards have ritual casting.
Subtle spell has huge combat utility: a subtle spell cannot be dispelled since a rival caster cannot see it being cast.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I think frustration on this is because of how strictly metamagic is limited.
You get two options, out of a list of eight
Only, 4 of them are really bad (unless you are a divine Soul Sorcerer which is new to the club) so you get to pick two from a list of four.
Only, one of those is incredibly expensive.
And another one is very niche unless you are playing a social game, the DM has not houseruled that you can sleight of hand spells (a very common houserule because of the narrative of Arcane Tricksters, Fey Warlocks and Bards), and/or you have enemies who constantly counterspell everything you do (this seems to be a big thing at some tables, but I've only ever seen one or two fights where counterspell is used against the players)
So... for 10 levels of the game, your choice has almost essentially been made for you. Such fun.
You miss the point that is feels like a waste.
A level three sorcerer essentially has one ability if they choose heighten " Once per day you can make one enemy roll one save with disadvantage."
Only, it is even worse than just using an ability that fails, because you know you could have used those points for something that succeeded, like quickening.
And, Heighten doesn't become a twice per day ability until level 6, unless you are willing to burn slots. And since it is three points, before level five you are talking about burning all your first level spells to make a second level stick (is three spells worth that cost?) or a second and a first.
It seems powerful, to burn low level spells to make high level spells possibly more powerful, but only if you are used to a dynamic where those low level spells aren't going to get used anyways, and if you have spells not being used as a sorcerer, you need to dump them. You don't have enough spell selection to be keeping chaff on the list.
An observation - if my plan with sorc for meta magic was to cast a few powerful spells boosted with meta magic, feeding lower slots for points... I would be more inclined to go warlock where I get a pair of top tier slots that recover every short rest plus known spells plus invocations I can change each level.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
A thought experiment.
What would be the effect on balance if sorcerers got Arcane Recovery (call it "Sorcerous Recovery" but make it work identically to Arcane recovery), Metamagic costs no Sorcery Points, and they in fact didn't have Sorcery Points at all. For the moment, pretend that class abilities that cost sorcery points are either free (if they cost 1 sorcery point) or can be used, say, 1/short rest or Cha mod per day for the more expensive ones.
Now they have the same number of spell slots as wizards, subclasses that are similar to wizards (I might give the overall subclass power edge to wizards, but it doesn't stand out as huge), and a class feature that gives them 2 to 4 special abilities they can apply to their spells.
How would the balance feel on that?
What would be the effect on balance if sorcerers got Arcane Recovery (call it "Sorcerous Recovery" but make it work identically to Arcane recovery), Metamagic costs no Sorcery Points, and they in fact didn't have Sorcery Points at all. For the moment, pretend that class abilities that cost sorcery points are either free (if they cost 1 sorcery point) or can be used, say, 1/short rest or Cha mod per day for the more expensive ones.
Now they have the same number of spell slots as wizards, subclasses that are similar to wizards (I might give the overall subclass power edge to wizards, but it doesn't stand out as huge), and a class feature that gives them 2 to 4 special abilities they can apply to their spells.
How would the balance feel on that?
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