Swapping Bard for Rogue

Tyler Dunn said:

So I have the following party

Variant human abjurer wizard
Half Elf Oath of the Ancients Paladin
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
Variant Human Battlemaster Fighter (Archery fighting style)
Variant Human Lore Bard

The Bard took the criminal background to fill the role of a rogue, but I'm worried that our party does not have enough dpr. Should the bard switch to a rogue to giev the party more dpr, or does my party have enough dpr as it is?

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Honestly I like the look of that party a lot more than the one with the rogue in it.

Even from an at will perspective (which is a terrible way to look at damage). A rough look at level 5. The fighter and paladin both do about 2 * 1d8+5. The cleric does about 1d8+3. The Wizard does 2d10. The Bard does 2d4. The rogue would have done 4d6+4
With the Bard = 61.5
With the Rogue = 72.5

That's just about an 18% party damage increase. By the time you factor in resource using abilities the gap is likely just 5% to 10% more Daily Damage Output with the rogue if even that much. Keep in mind the bard can use control and buff/debuff spells to help the party which can easily bridge that divide. He also provides additional healing and out of combat benefits. The only option I would particularly miss would be the wizard casting haste on the rogue and letting the rogue reaction attack every turn for sneak attack essentially getting 2 sneak attacks a round. But that just means the wizard will likely be using a few more spells in combat than he otherwise would have.

Your party as a whole really isn't that far behind without the rogues dpr contribution. Your bard can make up that contribution just by using faerie fire and putting advantage on an enemy. There's plenty of other options than DPR that bards get that likely impact encounters much more than a 17% increase in party dpr.

Are you playing the bard? If so, do what makes you happy. If not, it isn't your place to tell someone else what to do with their character.

That said, pcs are really well balanced in 5e. The bard may not be unleashing mad damage, but he's going to contribute to everyone else's damage nicely. Your party is fine.

Ugh. Worrying about DPR..... make characters not builds.


You’re party is gonna be fine. Solid crew.

the Jester said:

Are you playing the bard? If so, do what makes you happy. If not, it isn't your place to tell someone else what to do with their character.

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If the group is planning their party together as part of a group exercise then it is your job to offer input on other players class choice. I think we should all assume he's doing something innocent like that until proven otherwise.

cmad1977 said:

Ugh. Worrying about DPR..... make characters not builds.


You’re party is gonna be fine. Solid crew.

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There's lots of paths to making a character. Sometimes starting with the build first and then tweaking it to suit your particular character is just what the doctor ordered.

Tyler Dunn said:

So I have the following party

Variant human abjurer wizard
Half Elf Oath of the Ancients Paladin
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
Variant Human Battlemaster Fighter (Archery fighting style)
Variant Human Lore Bard

The Bard took the criminal background to fill the role of a rogue, but I'm worried that our party does not have enough dpr. Should the bard switch to a rogue to giev the party more dpr, or does my party have enough dpr as it is?

Click to expand...

That's not really a rogue's specific role anymore. It's just a skillset any character can add. Assumind the fighter is DEX base be could do a decent job the way 5e is set up. That's just a sidenote.

The player should play what he or she wants is the best answer. Over-analyzing to try for a nudge in effectiveness on a single aspect of combat is not nearly as important as enjoying the character.

Having said that, bard spells and inspiration are solid damage mitigation on a limited resource for the group. The rogue damage isn't as big a difference as the rogue's personal damage mitigation with things like cunning action, evasion, and uncanny dodge; not to mention the focus on DEX instead of CHA.

If the player wants cunning action and a bard flavor then going arcane trickster, sage background (bardic knowledge concept with history), and perform as a class skill etc to build the concept works. If the player wants a bard with more personal damage pick up greenflame blade and shillelagh at 6th level, and possibly moderately armored earlier.

There is room to build either class for a similar style to the other.

That is my advice. To answer your question, the group does enough damage either way.

The true falacy of trying to optimize DPR is that the DM can adjust the number of creatures and their HP to make the game fun to their liking. It's one thing if your party is clearly lacking something to be functional in either the combat, exploration or social pillars. Beyond that it is all truly relative to the table. The party listed above is going to do great with pretty much any 5th character because the four that have already declared race/class/subclass appear to cover the bases. I agree with the above poster; the player should play what he or she wants to play. Congrats; you have more freedom than most to simply conceive whatever you want to dive yourself into over the next few months.

Tyler Dunn said:

So I have the following party

Variant human abjurer wizard
Half Elf Oath of the Ancients Paladin
Hill Dwarf Tempest Cleric
Variant Human Battlemaster Fighter (Archery fighting style)
Variant Human Lore Bard

The Bard took the criminal background to fill the role of a rogue, but I'm worried that our party does not have enough dpr. Should the bard switch to a rogue to giev the party more dpr, or does my party have enough dpr as it is?

Click to expand...

Any amount of DPS is fine, a decent DM should always balance the adventures to match the capabilities of the party.

JacktheRabbit said:

Any amount of DPS is fine, a decent DM should always balance the adventures to match the capabilities of the party.

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not always. That would make choices meaningless.