Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

pukunui

Legend
I’ve already pointed this out in [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]’s last TLJ rant thread, but the only justification Rey needs for being “better” is that the Force is now awake. When the Force is awake, Force users don’t require as much training. Clearly the Force was asleep for a long time prior to Rey coming along. (It probably got bored watching a thousand generations of Jedi do the same stuff over and over again ...)

As for Anakin, Yoda himself said the prophecy could have been misread. Yes, his midichlorians were off the charts, but maybe Rey’s are even more so. We don’t know since Luke didn’t bother to take a blood sample while Rey was with him. ;)
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
You're the one trying to be clever. I answered your trap question. Here's mine.

On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke? Visually and what you can see. Ignore RotJ as Rey has had 2 movies.

Rey does move more rocks than Luke. On the other hand, she doesn't blow up a Death Star in her first flight in a sophisticated fighter-bomber either. So, with those completely different events lacking objective measurable scale, I'm going to go with any strong interpretation put on either being definitive is completely and utterly determined by the prejudices of the interpreter.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
ANH from the time Luke met Ben to the end of the film was about a day, at which point he then blew up a Death Star without a targeting computer. Anakin won a pod race and then blew up a Federation control ship as a 9 year old having had no training ever at all. But the girl's the problem, because she lifted up a rock, eh?

Anakin didn't win the pod race or blow up the ship with any use of force powers at all. With the pod race, he had good insticts which is an indicator that the force is stronger with someone, but is not using the force, and with the ship he pressed some random buttons to see what they could do and ooops! If they had actually had him using the force at his young age to blow up the ship, that scene wouldn't have been as lousy as it was. Luke did a snippet at the end, with guidance from a Jedi Master. Rey is using her powers virtually flawlessly with no aid whatsoever. There's a huge difference between her and the other two, and it has nothing at all do with "girl."
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.

Well, no. It isn't stated that lifting a rock is a higher level ability in the movies, but that doesn't mean that we have established that it isn't. We've just established that the movie doesn't specify. You're reaching a conclusion that isn't any more supported by the movies than [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]'s.

What we do know is that Luke struggled for quite a while to learn to use his powers in Empire, and even in Return of the Jedi he wasn't able to match Vader until he also tapped the dark side. Anakin took years to learn his. Rey without any significant time or training is able to match a dark side user, which is far superior to Luke or Anakin.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I love how folks claim that Luke got all kinds of training.

Obi-Wan describes the Force to him and then says “let go your conscious self” and then he’s blocking blasts from the training drone while blindfolded. This is also the extent of his light saber training that we see before he faces Vader. Yes, he loses, but he puts up a good fight. He impresses Vader and even gets a good shot in.

Yes, Luke trains with Yoda for a few days. He’s immediately able to start floating rocks and make crazy leaps and so forth. Is this really all that extensive? I don’t know, really....it’s hard to say how much time passes. Really not a lot, though....somewhere between a couple of days and a couple of weeks. However long Han and the others are stuck in the asteroid field and then on Bespin.

And one of the lessons Yoda teaches Luke, which he fails to grasp for some time, is that there is no difference between lifting a rock and lifting an x-wing. Which seems to be the only comment in the original films that compares one use of the Force with another in terms of effort.

Luke then presumably goes on to train some more in between Empire and Return. Again, hard to say how long. Hard to imagine that they’d hold off on rescuing Han very long, but we have no indication on how long it’s been. And when he shows up, he doesn’t seem all that much more capable with the Force. But Yoda does say that his training is complete.

So....based on Yoda’s statements, it seems like complete Jedi training is somewhere between a couple weeks and maybe a couple of months?

So then let’s look at Rey. She’s dropped off to survive on her own in a hostile environment when she’s about 5 years old. She spends the next 12 or so years crawling among the wreckage of all kinds of ships and other vehicles, scavenging for working components. We get enough of a glimpse of this life to know that it’s dangerous in all manner of ways.....she needs physical prowess to climb and maneuver through the wreckage, she needs to understand how the components function, and she also needs to contend with rivals and other opponents. And she had only herself to rely on during that time.

And do we not have hints that both Luke and Anakin have used the Force in their youth? In Anakin’s case, it’s explicitly stated. His instincts at racing and his knack for engineering are related to the Force. In Luke’s case, there are only hints that he’s done so....describing the shot he made in Beggar’s Canyon compared to the vent on the Death Star, when trained rebel pilots imply it’s an incredibly difficult shot.

So I’d say we have enough information to assume that Rey has been using the Force subconsciously to help survive for about 12 years, in an environment that is basically a giant obstacle course populated by hostile beings. So even if we’re generous about Luke’s training and say it was 6 months, Rey had about 24 times as much training. Yes, she lacked a teacher, but I would expect most folks would accept that she’d have some level of raw ability or affinity with the Force.

Do we really need things to be so explicitly stated?

Let alone more real world reasons for the increase in Force abilities due to improved special effects and how other action movies have characters doing all kinds of crazy things....watching Alec Guiness do a light saber spin doesn’t really compare to Thanos throwing a moon at the Avengers.
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
If only there had been a poll created with a couple of snarky options and a post explaining the poll by conversation with one’s self....then it’d be meaningful!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Sigh I'll explain it in different way. With Rey it's as subtle as a brick in the face. She powerful because of reasons.

In each OT movie you have Luke grow in power slowly and each movie there is early, mid, end movie Luke. You can see his growth in the force.

ANH
Early. Luke is farm boy, sucks owned by Tuskans gets trained ( minimally)

Middle. He is a hero rescues princess.

End. Blows up death Star via impossible shot using the force.

ESB.
Early. Uses telekinesis for the 1st time. We have only seen Vader do that.

Mid movie. Gets trained, lacks control lose his temper, moves rocks. Moving rocks seems harder than a lightsaber. Fails to move X Wing.
End. Runs off, confronts Vader.

RotJ
Early. Jabbas palace. Uses force choke. Foreshadowing and Vader uses force choke. Uses mind trick, hmmn Been a Jedi Master uses mind trick. Fails to use it on Jabba, improved combat skill with lightsaber. Uses telekinesis more (like Vader) Hmmn Luke's a Jedi.

Mid movie, sees Yoda again learns the truth. Relationship established hands himself in.

End. Confronts Vader, gives in to his anger, wins (darkside warnings) becomes full Jedi roll credits.

Lucas was subtle, Luke's powers grow and you can compare it with Ben and Vader's. It's also explained and uses foreshadowing. Follows logical path it's a clever spin on the heroes journey.

Rey is way more in your face with her powers than Luke. Not much in the way of character development, no real discernable progress, no relationship to people she just met, and is Uber at everything relative to Luke (and Vader and maybe Yoda).

Ones a compelling character, the others just powerful. No real explaination or personality, not much world build, can duel a darksider and deflect blaster bolts untrained about 5 minutes after picking up a lightsaber. Took Luke 3 movies vs one.

Isn't it reasonable to infer that when Luke starts using Jedi/Sith Master powers he is getting better. The new movies are doing the same ham fisted stupid it the bad parts of the old legends material did. Bigger is better, more powerful cookie cutter characters etc.

There's no Lucas subtle story telling there. Or Zahns Thrawn Trilogy. It's brick in face storytelling ( done poorly). Luke touched the darkside 2 or 3 times as well.
 
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Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
Says who?

Says Zardnaar, holder of the only Dragon Ball Z 'Scouter' that can read Jedi Power levels.

Rey's over !#$&ing 9000!!!!!!!!

On a more serious note. How are lifting rocks an advanced skill when both Rey and Luke are shown doing it during training. Why would you teach someone a master kill, during training? You start with the easy stuff first.

Also, if we are measuring power levels with game mechanics, none of those feats are very advanced if we take into account KoToR or just the Old Rebulic game. Abilities you leave early, or could feat/talent into as soon as you liked. (Sure in KoToR you are a master with amnesia, but its in the mechanics so... must be a valid measure of power right?
 

Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
Anakin didn't win the pod race or blow up the ship with any use of force powers at all. With the pod race, he had good insticts which is an indicator that the force is stronger with someone, but is not using the force, and with the ship he pressed some random buttons to see what they could do and ooops! If they had actually had him using the force at his young age to blow up the ship, that scene wouldn't have been as lousy as it was. Luke did a snippet at the end, with guidance from a Jedi Master. Rey is using her powers virtually flawlessly with no aid whatsoever. There's a huge difference between her and the other two, and it has nothing at all do with "girl."

Sorry, but canon disagrees with you.

QUI-GON: You should be proud of your son. He gives without any thought of reward.
SHMI: He knows nothing of greed. He has...
QUI-GON: He has special powers.
SHMI: Yes...
QUI-GON: He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.

Also I can't read this quotes without hearing Liam Neeson's amazing voice.
 

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