Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi argument

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

Doesn't specifically say but as I said see the actual movies.

Lucas was also clear that Vader's potential was about the peak of a Jedis power. All those interviews over the years. An entire generation was also raised on the old legends material starting with the Marvel comics. Sure you can declear then non canon but it doesn't magically make them go away. Feeds into audiences expectations yes? Same thing with 4E they declear this is the new way people liked the old.

Did you ever play Knights of the Old Republic? Millions did. Had a great story and that's what Star Wars is about and they serve up bilge water.

New Star Wars stuff can be done well, people expected better. Those feelings and emotions don't go away. Yoda's words don't go away he basically laid down the lore after all. Control control you must have control, and beware the darkside. They should have paid more attention to the tropes. How do you lose money in a Star Wars film, beats me but Disney did it.

Like it or not the movies are about the Skywalker's, if you don't like them fine but it's a major part of them yes?

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Doesn't specifically say but as I said see the actual movies.

Exactly. We got there in the end. Thank you.

So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.

Paul Goldstone · Apr 17, 2019

The Last Jedi was by far the worst of all the SW films. It promised so much and delivered less than zero. It ignored swathes of material from TWA (ANH clone).

If you can use ships with hyperspace drives to take out capital ships, why hasn't the rebellion/resistance been using that tactic since forever. Ridiculous.

Luke's "not really here" fight is straight from Snake Pliskin Escape from LA.

As to the story or Rey and her family, one can only presume that EmoRen lied for some purpose that Rey wasn't a skywalker to get her to turn a darksider. Though one wonders how she could be a Skywalker, she would hvae to have been abandoned by Luke or Leia. There was no Mara Jade refernce since they binned all the good expanded universe stuff though I am sure it could retcon in for the next instalment.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

Morrus said:
Exactly. We got there in the end. Thank you.

So now we've finally established that it *isn't* the case that lifting a rock is a higher level ability ability than aiming that torpedo, we can lay the Rey 'Mary Sue' nonsense to rest, since we've clearly and definitively now established that Luke and Anakin were just the same.

Big difference in power levels used on screen is the main point.

Anakin was terrible, he was worse character than Rey. Jake Loyd gets a pass he was 10, Hayden well maybe Lucas is crap at dialogue. Daisy is better than both of the. And probably Mark as well.

Luke sucked for two movies, kid Anakin was terrible and annoying (Rey's not). Rey is Uber, Adult Anakin was a Jedi he had in universe reasons for being power still got chopped up.

I don't recall Luke winning a lightsaber fight until Episode VI, he wasn't using mind trick until the third movie. You don't see Vader doing Rey levels of Telekinesis until Rogue One 18 years a Sith Lord 13 years of Jedi training.

That's the difference untrained/barely trained doing things Jedi/Sith Masters do after decades, those Masters being some of the most powerful in the Galaxy. Luke struggled to move a few stones Rey can lift a cave worth. Same force power completely different scale (Yoda levels).

Imaculata · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

"Size matters not. Judge me by your size do you?"

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

Eh. You can keep writing essays, but your entire point hinges on a single factual claim which has been disproved, and which you’ve finally conceded to. Feel free to write more diatribes, but my work here is done.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

Morrus said:
Eh. You can keep writing essays, but your entire point hinges on a single factual claim which has been disproved, and which you’ve finally conceded to. Feel free to write more diatribes, but my work here is done.

No you using a false equivalent asking for a citation on an opinion on something we can see clear as day on screen. It's fairly apparent who is more powerful and it's not Luke. And yet Luke's the best character of the three (Anakin's at the bottom). If Masters can use powers padawans can't it should be clear what's more powerful.

The sky is blue (citation please). Hmmmn.

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
The sky is blue (citation please).

You cite it. It’s your claim.

Zardnaar · Apr 17, 2019

Morrus said:
So cite it. Where on film does it say that lifting a rock is “next level stuff” and harder than aiming a torpedo, as you claimed? Where, on screen, does it say that?

(It doesn’t, of course, which is why after asking three times, all your answers are still just vague handwavy “oh, on the screen somewhere”).

Morrus said:
You cite it. It’s your claim.

You're the one trying to be clever. I answered your trap question. Here's mine.

On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke? Visually and what you can see. Ignore RotJ as Rey has had 2 movies.

Morrus · Apr 17, 2019

Zardnaar said:
On screen in the movies who is better at using the force Rey or Luke?

You’ve conceded that Rey’s abilities are not established anywhere as being more powerful abilities. That’s settled now. The reverse, of course, is also true.

Really, we’ve settled this point, and agreed on it. I’m not going to continue repeating myself over and over.

Hey, I get it. You don't like TLJ, and that's fine. But you wanted to use the thread to lecture everybody on how much you hated TLJ, and made some bold factual claims about established canon to ‘prove’ your opinion was the correct one, and feel it’s unfair that people ask you to back them up rather than just take you at your word. It’s gotta be frustrating, and now you’re angry at me for it. But that’s how debate works. Sorry, man.