D&D 5E How do you handle the "economy killing spells" in your game?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That depends on whether the druids are rigid in their beliefs, and refuse to use their powers for any other purpose than what directly supports nature (though that's already invalidated by the mere fact of having druids as adventurers), or they recognize that increasing crop yields by 20% means saving 10,000 square miles of nature from being turned into farmland. That seems like an extremely efficient way of preserving nature and keeping it in balance. Each druid effectively keeps 500 square miles of nature safe by using one spell per day.

Druids are automatically rigid in their beliefs, like clerics, or they would not be druids. They'd be nature lover, tree huggers, hippies, or whatever else you want to call them. Also, the existence of adventurers does not invalidate what I said, as I said the following, ". You might get an individual here or there that aids a single farmer with a single cast of the spell as thanks for some sort of aid or out of friendship, but druids aren't going to disrupt nature the way you are describing." Adventurers are a part of "...an individual here or there..."

Put another way, I don't believe druids are evil cultists who are completely immune to reasonable compromises.

Who said anything about evil cultists. Don't put words in my mouth please.
 

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What I typically do is to take into account the depredations of the many various and sundry types of monsters that plague the world to such an extent that professional adventurers are a requirement for a functioning society.

Druids casting plant growth every year across the lands in this case aren't disrupting nature. They are restoring the balance of nature's bounty in the face of unnatural attacks (i.e. monsters). Wizards using fabricate aren't displacing guild craftsmen, they are bolstering shortfalls due to every able bodied man being conscripted to fight off the trollkin invasion. Clerics casting cure disease aren't throwing population growth out of whack, they are staving off the worst effects of the plague cultists that are trying to end the world.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Druids are automatically rigid in their beliefs, like clerics, or they would not be druids. They'd be nature lover, tree huggers, hippies, or whatever else you want to call them. Also, the existence of adventurers does not invalidate what I said, as I said the following, ". You might get an individual here or there that aids a single farmer with a single cast of the spell as thanks for some sort of aid or out of friendship, but druids aren't going to disrupt nature the way you are describing." Adventurers are a part of "...an individual here or there..."

I would agree that this is a classical interpretation of a druid, but it's certainly not the only possible one.

Here's some example world building that results in a druidic order dedicated to casting Plant Growth for cities.

There was once a terrible war between the druids and civilization. Though it began in the druids attempting to save nature from populations that we're growing out of control, the war soon was ravaging nature at a frightening pace. In a bid to prevent the world from ending, the druids sued for peace, pledging to serve mankind. Thenceforth, they would use their magics to bolster the farmlands and quell the direst of storms.

Of course, what the people didn't know was that while these magics kept the people fed and in comfort, they were also gradually reducing the fertility rate of those who benefitted from the magics. In such a way, the growth of populations was checked, nature safeguarded, and the balance maintained. To those sages who noticed this change, it was explained away as the result of the horrible curses and poisons released during the great war. And those sages who kept prodding were likely met with "accidents".
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I would agree that this is a classical interpretation of a druid, but it's certainly not the only possible one.

Here's some example world building that results in a druidic order dedicated to casting Plant Growth for cities.

There was once a terrible war between the druids and civilization. Though it began in the druids attempting to save nature from populations that we're growing out of control, the war soon was ravaging nature at a frightening pace. In a bid to prevent the world from ending, the druids sued for peace, pledging to serve mankind. Thenceforth, they would use their magics to bolster the farmlands and quell the direst of storms.

Of course, what the people didn't know was that while these magics kept the people fed and in comfort, they were also gradually reducing the fertility rate of those who benefitted from the magics. In such a way, the growth of populations was checked, nature safeguarded, and the balance maintained. To those sages who noticed this change, it was explained away as the result of the horrible curses and poisons released during the great war. And those sages who kept prodding were likely met with "accidents".

Well, yeah, you can change the fluff for sure. This thread is about 5e and how it's written, though. If we're going with changes, the OP could just change the spells in question to not be usable to affect the economy at all. :)
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Well, yeah, you can change the fluff for sure. This thread is about 5e and how it's written, though. If we're going with changes, the OP could just change the spells in question to not be usable to affect the economy at all. :)

It's not changing the PHB fluff at all, just putting it into a particular context.

To quote the 5e PHB, page 65, "Druids are also concerned with the delicate ecological balance that sustains plant and animal life, and the need for civilized folk to live in harmony with nature, not in opposition to it."

The druids in my example setting are ensuring exactly that. Sure, it's not the bog-standard traditional contextualization of what a druid does, but it's not outside the scope of the class either.

If I was running this setting, a player could read the Druid class and have a solid idea of what a druid is and does. I could then explain to them that a large sect oversees civilization, as explained in my previous post, but that other sects exist. They could choose which sect to be with, or choose to be an independent.

Unlike changing the spells in question, which would almost certainly require modification of mechanics.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
I think too much of this discussion devolved into how two spells in particular work. I think the more general thrust would be, given the spells and items in the game, what would a game world realistically look like? Does a setting like Forgotten Realms really work from a magical perspective? For example, take a wall-city or castle. Neither are effective at stopping aerial or teleporting opponents. Spells like Passwall render them moot as well. Plant Growth and Fabricate are just the tip of the iceberg.

Also for those that suggest a wizard would have something better to do with their time, you have to look at all of the options a wizard has available to them. The economic theory that governs this is called Comparative Advantage.

The other theory of economics that also needs to be considered is called the Tragedy of the Commons -- shared resources are always managed much less efficiently than held resources. It is why just giving away wealth doesn't work (either in the real world or a fantasy world).

While the focus has been on high powered spells, it is the cantrips which have unlimited casting which are the real concerns. Any of the spells that manipulate energy or items essentially at will are super transformative.

The spells listed in the game are primarily those used in adventuring, but it would be easy to imagine spells that would not be used in adventuring but would be used by the general population. For example, a lesser version of Prestidigitation that can only "chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour" could be super easy to learn (or make a wand of) would be a bartender's/chef's dream.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
every able bodied man being conscripted to fight off the trollkin invasion. .
Well, we couldn't let the little buggers invade D&D, with their battlemagic and power crystals and percentile skills and level-less progression! I don't care if you just came looking for a better life, /go home to Glorantha!/ you stunted excuse for a troll! Do you even regenerate?!
 

I think too much of this discussion devolved into how two spells in particular work. I think the more general thrust would be, given the spells and items in the game, what would a game world realistically look like? Does a setting like Forgotten Realms really work from a magical perspective? For example, take a wall-city or castle. Neither are effective at stopping aerial or teleporting opponents. Spells like Passwall render them moot as well. Plant Growth and Fabricate are just the tip of the iceberg.

I figure the purpose of castles is against goblins, bugbears, orcs, ogres/trolls/etc, and so on. These rarely have access to spells 3rd level and above (with the potential exception of hobgoblins, but those act more like nations than wandering bands of monsters like the other goblinoid/orc/giantkin types).

So you find castles in areas near a frontier between humanity/dwarves/etc and monster-inhabited wilderness. In areas surrounded by civilization for hundreds of miles around, where the primary threat is other nations of organized humans/dwarves/elves etc, you wouldn't find castles (except historical ones left over from centuries ago when they were useful). Instead, fortifications would likely be underground bunkers (still vulnerable to earthquake, but I figure 8th and 9th level spells aren't really common enough to be taken into account in that way, whereas 3rd-4th level stuff like fly and dimension door are.)


Also for those that suggest a wizard would have something better to do with their time, you have to look at all of the options a wizard has available to them. The economic theory that governs this is called Comparative Advantage.

To a degree. But I also think that there is a factor that doesn't apply to economics in a technological world, because people who get to the levels where they can cast 3rd+ level spells (tier 2) are highly driven personalities with their own goals: they're not necessarily going to act like "rational economic actors". (I figure there is also a bit of a cultural factor in the "spellcasting subculture", where once you have enough to be comfortable/not worry about supporting yourself, the general attitude is that making more money is a distraction from the really important stuff, magic itself. Now there are definitely powerful mages who go off into wilderness/frontier regions and set themselves up as lords, but even that's more about power and independence than wealth per se.)

The spells listed in the game are primarily those used in adventuring, but it would be easy to imagine spells that would not be used in adventuring but would be used by the general population. For example, a lesser version of Prestidigitation that can only "chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour" could be super easy to learn (or make a wand of) would be a bartender's/chef's dream.

Oh, I figure these sorts of things absolutely are used widely. (And the regular cantrips too - elves are pretty numerous in my setting, and all high elves get one cantrip - and I figure non-adventuring NPCs all have "mundane utility" things like message, mending, prestidigitation, etc. rather than firebolt or ray of frost.)

They are just kind of "in the background", things that improve convenience, save time, and raise the standard of living well beyond what a non-magical society with the same level of physical technology would have.
 

WaterRabbit

Explorer
Instead, fortifications would likely be underground bunkers (still vulnerable to earthquake, but I figure 8th and 9th level spells aren't really common enough to be taken into account in that way, whereas 3rd-4th level stuff like fly and dimension door are.)

Umber Hulks



To a degree. But I also think that there is a factor that doesn't apply to economics in a technological world, because people who get to the levels where they can cast 3rd+ level spells (tier 2) are highly driven personalities with their own goals: they're not necessarily going to act like "rational economic actors". (I figure there is also a bit of a cultural factor in the "spellcasting subculture", where once you have enough to be comfortable/not worry about supporting yourself, the general attitude is that making more money is a distraction from the really important stuff, magic itself. Now there are definitely powerful mages who go off into wilderness/frontier regions and set themselves up as lords, but even that's more about power and independence than wealth per se.)

Comparative Advantage isn't just about money. It is using your time pursuing worth. The context of the discussion was framed around a wizard making money by casting spells, so Comparative Advantage does absolutely apply and they are going to be rational economic actors, because if they aren't then they don't matter for this discussion which is about how magic affects the game world and especially the economy.



Oh, I figure these sorts of things absolutely are used widely. (And the regular cantrips too - elves are pretty numerous in my setting, and all high elves get one cantrip - and I figure non-adventuring NPCs all have "mundane utility" things like message, mending, prestidigitation, etc. rather than firebolt or ray of frost.)

They are just kind of "in the background", things that improve convenience, save time, and raise the standard of living well beyond what a non-magical society with the same level of physical technology would have.

Saying something is in the background doesn't really address what the world looks like and how it would evolve with access to magical technologies.
 

Saying something is in the background doesn't really address what the world looks like and how it would evolve with access to magical technologies.

This is true, but addressing how it makes the most sense that the world would evolve based on certain pre-established facts (such as the existence of certain magic) is a different exercise from assuming that those things do exist, but that the world functions the way you want/imagine your D&D world to exist in spite of the the fact that it looks like an implausible result of those facts, and then coming up with a justification for why those facts still entail.

So we each individually need to be clear about which question we are attempting to address. For me, for instance, I have little interest in the former, but find the latter very useful for helping to suspend disbelief.
 

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